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Airbusboy

2003 Rancher ES valve issue

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Well....Dang. Filter WAS backwards. The rest of this machine is pristine so here's what I'm going to do. Rebuild the rocker assembly, replace the pushrods and reassemble. Flush the motor interior several times, then drive it till it dies. I bought her new and added the winch and Warn 2/4 splitter. It's 17/18 years old and I've gotten many a mile and smile out of her so when she dies, I'll part her out and get a new one. Lesson learned. I have NO idea how the filter got that way. I now have a sore back and gained knowledge. Thank you to all for the help in figuring this out!   Out of curiosity...is it difficult to find new engines for these and is it hard to swap 'em out? (in case I get a wild hair).IMG_3715 copy.jpg

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Bummer , such a clean atv with so few hours on it , it would be a shame  to not fix it right  !  ------  You said it has been a " hour or two " since the last oil change , shows just how tuff a Honda is , most other brands wouldn't have lasted a couple of minutes with no oil flow ------ I would suspect the engine is total toasted after a hour or two of running with no oil , crankshaft/connecting rod , piston , jug , valve guides ,  cam , bearings all fried , you wouldn't  really know how bad it is till it was  opened up ---- there are companies out there that sell rebuilt engines , I did a quick search of trx350 engines rebuilt , Power Sports Nation has a listing $1,600 for a 6 month warranty , swopping it out is ready not bad ----- it doesn't sound like you know any thing about the engine , so going for a rebuild yourself might be a tuff road , you ready for a project 

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that's rough, such a nice looking low mile machine with all the money, time  and mods, take it by the your other post you ran this for quiet a while with the oil filter in wrong ? you've already got some skill, and these guys are great at helping on just about about any honda issue, so a rebuild might be the way i would go, depending on cost, compaired to a rebuilt engine, just depends on which choice,  but the last thing i would do is buy a new one, the quality of the new bikes don't hold a candle to the older machines. 

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You might get out alright.

Small amount of oil keeps the bottom OK and the top gets the worst of it.

 

I had a buddy do the exact same thing and all we ended up doing was the top.

(Valves lapped with new seals, piston and rings, light hone and gaskets) The bottom was completely intact.

Arguably it would have been fine even without a rebuild... Honda lol

 

It has been in service for over 5 years since that happened.

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17 hours ago, Airbusboy said:

the exhaust rocker would be locked. You could TAP it and it would let go. On top of that, the top of the push rod on the exhaust side was flattened.

 

id say with you had described the engine ran for quiet a while, allowing for the rod to mushroom on the exhaust side, then you talk extra pressure on the cam shaft, and what hidden damage on the intake side ?? not worth taking a chance, IMO, i believe fish is right, new engine, or dig in and rebuild this one, you won't be able to tell what metal broke loose from the push rods, or how much damage was done to the cam shaft, and being the filter was in backwards, ( not filtering ) and what bits of metal are still in the crank case could end up up destroying the oil pump. 

Edited by _Wilson_™

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     Yep. Plan now is to replace the entire rocker assembly and the pushrods. Inspect as best I can without pulling the cylinder. If nothing jumps out at me, fill/flush the motor several times, then just run it and see how she behaves.  Nothing to lose. With no oil going topside, is it possible there was minimal 'wash-down' of metal down into the lower case and MAYBE she'll be okay? Of course, the extra pressure on at least the exhaust pushrod and cam lobe MIGHT have some damage directly. Does this machine have a  magnetic oil plug that may have captured some metal and minimized the damage?  FYI ... there was no visible galling of metal or damage to the rocker assembly at all, only a 'rough' feel as I manually moved the rocker(s) on the pivot rod. The only visible damage was the slight mushrooming to the top of the exhaust pushrod. With that in mind, I'm gambling on about $100 worth of parts/oil/filters and roll those dice....

 

Thanks for your thoughts and guidance here, fellas....

 

I've restored several OLD Honda motorcycles over the years, the best one being my 1983 Honda CB1000C so I'm not new to wrenches, just terribly embarrassed that I caused this mess of my own accord.  Can I say I must've been drinking at the time and gain some sympathy? LOL.

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i wouldn't sweat it, we've all made mistakes, but with your skill i think you could do this job just fine. 

 

11 minutes ago, Airbusboy said:

is it possible there was minimal 'wash-down' of metal down into the lower case and MAYBE she'll be okay? Of course, the extra pressure on at least the exhaust pushrod and cam lobe MIGHT have some damage directly.

 

thats a hard question to answer, could there have been some come down from the push rods, or some off the cam shaft end ? no telling. 

 

14 minutes ago, Airbusboy said:

Does this machine have a  magnetic oil plug that may have captured some metal and minimized the damage?

 

good idea ^^^ no, they dont, but they should, but i have a dimple magnetic plug in mine, they work great! this bike also has an oil cooler  correct ? 

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15 minutes ago, Airbusboy said:

Plan now is to replace the entire rocker assembly and the pushrods

 

Take some pictures of the damage if you get a chance.

 

19 minutes ago, Airbusboy said:

Does this machine have a magnetic oil plug that may have captured some metal and minimized the damage?

 

Not unless you added one.

 

22 minutes ago, Airbusboy said:

The only visible damage was the slight mushrooming to the top of the exhaust pushrod

 

You're gonna get away with it.

Fingers crossed anyway. I'm hopeful for ya and agree with the thought process behind.

 

24 minutes ago, Airbusboy said:

terribly embarrassed that I caused this mess of my own accord.  Can I say I must've been drinking at the time and gain some sympathy? LOL.

 

It might not even be your "fault" 

I have encountered several oil filters that have the "this side out" stamped into the metal on the wrong side...

That would assume you bought an off-brand oil filter (or got ripped off)

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here's my .02's worth, take it for what it's worth ?. replace the bad parts, run it, if it goes down hill from there ?, come back to us, we will tell you what all you need to rebuild that motor !. its not hard...and you will save lots of cash in the process !. you are in great hands here when it comes to rebuilding this engine !. oh, and don't feel bad about installing the filter backwards..you are not the first person ?, and wont be the last !..lol.

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Well guys....I checked the filter that I removed. It was an 'Emgo' brand and the ONLY writing on it was 'TOP' printed on the outer side. Still, I should've known that it should have gone to the outside.  This is the electric shift model and that tells me that I also need to be concerned that any possible metal MAY have gone there (transmission) as well as the bottom end. Oh goody.  I didn't take an pics of the rocker assembly cause there is no damage to see, only feel. However, here is a pic of the top end of the exhaust pushrod. I've had this thing so long that I can't remember but I THINK I did install a magnetic oil plug. I'll find out for sure when I drain it. I also plan on straining the oil through a white coffee filter to see if I see any chips/metal. Keeping my fingers crossed. 

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need to see the rocker faces, i bet they are flat ?..lol, same with the cam lobes.

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I checked. The exhaust rocker that contacts the pushrod is slightly more bright-polished than the intake, but no deformation. Valve stem contact points are normal. 

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You talking to the King of " Send It " , patch it back together , ride it hard and see how far it will take you , all you got to lose is time and money ----No pain / no gain .....  I woke up I was dreaming  , 1-2 hours of running with no oil flowing and it started running bad at it's end , it's fried , the saying " throwing good money at bad money comes to mind " , and I am a Send Guy at heart 

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Glad you figured it out!

-such a nice clean machine, it really would not be all that much work to pull rest of engine and tear it down, check everything out thoroughly

and with a few gaskets and time you will have peace of mind and a really nice machine that will last a long, long time

But I think if the top of your crank is still in good shape and the cam is good and no metal in the oil, you will be alright once you replace

all the worn upper parts.

I have seen this happen on quite a few of these in my time and they are still running great to this day, but they were caught in time

 

Its overkill, but this is what I do when I put an engine back together:

 

the first thing I do with motor still on the bench with the lower end assembled, filled with oil and no top end, is:

 

- pre-oil all necessary moving areas and bearings and crank it with starter ( I put rolled cardboard tube around crank area and hold it straight up with rubber surgical tubing to keep crank from knocking around) and confirm good clear oil flow to the incoming oil filter housing area, then install filter properly and verify oil comes out the output hole in front case that goes to oil cooler

 

-after top end install and pre-oil  and engine is back in frame, hook up intake end of (previously flushed out) oil cooler and crank until clear oil comes out far end of cooler line

 

- hook up second oil cooler line to motor and crank until you see good clear oil at top end with valve cover removed or the oil check bolt removed from cover

 

At that point with all oil flow verified you are ready to fire it up and know that the oil flow circuit is all good

 

Note

I have  been doing this for awhile (20 plus years) and I just last month caught an oil flow issue on a foreman 450 motor I just did-

 

On checking initial flow to the open filter housing, it would surge out,  then drop to a trickle to nothing- repeat same thing- weak to no flow??

I was sure the oil pump and all lower area work I did was good, so I thought about it overnight and went out to check one thing and sure enough that was it!

When putting the front clutch cover on, I had knocked the oil pump dowel pin and oring out of place and it fell down bottom and was there when I pulled cover off

Without it, the oil was having to jump the open gap in between the oil pump and clutch cover and most of it was just falling back into motor

Put dowel pin back in place and it pumped oil like a dream, so one more thing to look out for and be careful about in the future

 

Sorry for the rant hope it helps, like I said its a bit overkill but has always given peace of mind on a new engine engine rebuild

 

I actually started doing this because an old time auto mechanic showed me years ago when he got a new crate motor in to install, the first thing he would do is fill it with oil and he had a drill with an extension he would stick down the distributor hole and spin the oil pump to check oil pump/flow-believe it or not, he told me about 1 out of 10 motors (or so) would not pump oil and he would immediately send them back-so that kind of stuck in my mind to check oil flow as the very first thing

 

( I highlighted "thought about it overnight" as sometimes I have found it good to just take a break and think things through and then get back it with a plan)

Too many times I have just "wanted to be done" and after 12-14  work hours and being frustrated etc, its best to give yourself a break instead of powering on through- which I still find myself doing because I am quite stubborn at times..... lol

 

Happy New Year to everyone!

 

Edited by AKATV
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     While I wait for parts, I have been studying the service manual and I have a question....Is the oil pump fed FROM the filter housing or from/via the scavenger pipe? The reason I ask is 'IF' it is fed FROM the scavenger pipe, which I suspect, then the pump never ran dry in my case, only the upper cylinder/rockers. And IF that's the case, then perhaps the pump did not sustain much, if any, damage. I also want to clarify...I use this machine to go from my hunting trailer to my deer stand and back, that's all. The time each way is about 5-7 minutes, and then it sits for several hours. Plus I don't abuse it when I do run it.  My point is that it barely gets up to operating temps and never really gets 'hot'. With that in mind, perhaps the upper cylinder damage is minimal and I MAY get lucky. I plan on gently wiping the entire upper area 'upwards' from the pushrod cavity with a oil dampened sponge to remove any metal that could be laying there. After several swipes like that, I'll slowly pour some light-weight oil down the entire upper cylinder with the oil plug out, letting it flow straight out and not sit in the lower case. After a few quarts, I'll put the plug back in and fill it up to normal capacity with oil. Without attaching the gas tank, run it long enough to use all the fuel in the carb bowl, then remove the valve cover to confirm oil IS being pumped 'upstairs'. Assuming it is, reassemble all of it, plastics included, and run it for about 30 minutes, then drain it and change filters. I'll do that a few times, then if she's still running proper, fill it with good oil and let her go with my fingers crossed.        And IF I find that oil is NOT being pumped upstairs, then perhaps JUST replace the oil pump, assuming I can find one, and then do the above procedure. What  ya think?

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20 minutes ago, Airbusboy said:

    What  ya think?

I think , you want someone to think like you think to make you feel better about what you think , so I think it would be a waste of my time to think on making any suggestions cause I don't think like you  .... LOL 

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You're right about the oil pump @Airbusboy. Everything downstream from the oil pump was starved for oil though. Don't forget to remove & flush the oil cooler & oil lines too. It looks like ya gonna get away with this mistake....

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3 hours ago, Airbusboy said:

     While I wait for parts, I have been studying the service manual and I have a question....Is the oil pump fed FROM the filter housing or from/via the scavenger pipe? The reason I ask is 'IF' it is fed FROM the scavenger pipe, which I suspect, then the pump never ran dry in my case, only the upper cylinder/rockers. And IF that's the case, then perhaps the pump did not sustain much, if any, damage. I also want to clarify...I use this machine to go from my hunting trailer to my deer stand and back, that's all. The time each way is about 5-7 minutes, and then it sits for several hours. Plus I don't abuse it when I do run it.  My point is that it barely gets up to operating temps and never really gets 'hot'. With that in mind, perhaps the upper cylinder damage is minimal and I MAY get lucky. I plan on gently wiping the entire upper area 'upwards' from the pushrod cavity with a oil dampened sponge to remove any metal that could be laying there. After several swipes like that, I'll slowly pour some light-weight oil down the entire upper cylinder with the oil plug out, letting it flow straight out and not sit in the lower case. After a few quarts, I'll put the plug back in and fill it up to normal capacity with oil. Without attaching the gas tank, run it long enough to use all the fuel in the carb bowl, then remove the valve cover to confirm oil IS being pumped 'upstairs'. Assuming it is, reassemble all of it, plastics included, and run it for about 30 minutes, then drain it and change filters. I'll do that a few times, then if she's still running proper, fill it with good oil and let her go with my fingers crossed.        And IF I find that oil is NOT being pumped upstairs, then perhaps JUST replace the oil pump, assuming I can find one, and then do the above procedure. What  ya think?

 

Before i Started mine after the rebuild. I had the VC off(the oil feeds on my 450 go in to drillings in the VC and get squirted on the valves)...I cranked it til it spurted oil out. Its not high pressure like a car is. As soon as I saw it spurt out, I put it back together and ran it.

 

The oil pump on the 450 has a oil pump bypass on it(it goes straight from pump to filter to oil cooler to engine if I recall right). So if the filter is deadheaded(put in backwards) then it will bypass back to the crankcase. I 'suspect' that the oil pump would be fine....but depends on how hot the pump got. But I think I saw someone on here show a twisted off oil pump shaft at one point in last few months but I can't recall what caused that. I think the engine was in much worse shape. 450s runs off the front of the camshaft.

 

As for damage. On my 450. The oil pump feeds in to the crankshaft. The crankshaft distributes oil to the rod and the piston pin(or maybe not the pin....I can't recall...it may be splash oiled). Seems to me it also then feeds over to the trans bearings to pump oil through the shafts as there's a shaft/bushing over there on mine that would suffer from lack of oil too.

 

Any gears should be OK as they run in oil. Its the bushings/bearings that would suffer. I think the sealed bearings would retain oil during a oil change and if you didn't run it hard that oil should have been OK. 

 

I'm far from one of the experts on here though. 

 

I'd rebuild the top end and put it back together and see how it acts. Its not hard to dig in and inspect/replace though. Oddly fun but sounds like you have done it before.

 

Good luck. 

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Yep. Been a Honda fan for many years. Prior to this my biggest pain on a Honda has been the 4-in-a-bank carbs on the old air-cooled Honda Fours. LOTS of specialty tools for those but it's worth it to see a modern crotch rocket shocked to see my 38 year old CB1000C show 'em my taillight. Unbelievably smooth and powerful. The parts for the Rancher should be in about a week from now, right after hunting season ends. Ain't that the way it always goes? LOL. I'm rather optimistic. 

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Full rebuild on a 350 isn't bad.  Vince at Mr Crankshaft charges about $225ish to rebuild the crank/ new rod, top end could be bored with a new piston, fix your valve issues, get a used 400AT cam for a little more oomph, and go through it.  We'll walk you through it!

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Well, so far so good.Top end rebuilt and flushed. Valves adjusted. Compression checked at about 85 psi. Oil confirmed being pumped 'upstairs' and through the valve cover galley. Ran 3 carb-bowls full of fuel, then changed oil and filter. No metal found in filter upon examination. Put everything back together and filled with oil and new filter. Ran her around my yard for about 15-20 minutes. She sounds fine. Good power. Revs up normal. Nothing unusual. Tomorrow I plan on taking her to camp and running her for an hour or so, then change the oil and filter again and let her go. Fingers crossed. If my top-end rebuild and flush doesn't work, what do you think will be the first signs? Compression loss? Power loss? Noisy bottom end? Noisy top end? Hard shifting? 

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Glad you got it running ---- I would think the first thing you might notice is smoke out the tail pipe 

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Update.....

     I think I pulled it off. She runs excellent. Good power. Revs nicely. Idles smooth. SLIGHT smoke if it idles for a while then I 'blip' the throttle, but then it clears out and she runs clear. I DID install a magnetic oil plug and when I changed the oil/filter after about an hours' worth of run time there was a small amount of black goo stuck to it. It was almost the consistency of super-fine/600 grit valve grinding compound. I plan on changing the oil/filter again after she's been run about another 5 hours or so, then space them out to normal intervals. A hearty 'THANKS' to all you guys for the help/guidance/advise, although Honda might be mad at you for killing a potential sale of a new one! 

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