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freebo86

Adjusted Valves runs and sounds poorly

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1 hour ago, Fishfiles said:

I mentioned before to take the recoil starter cover off and use a socket , it  is worth the effort 


Will do this will help give an idea on the 10degree turn approximation. Thanks!

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11 minutes ago, freebo86 said:


Will do this will help give an idea on the 10degree turn approximation. Thanks!

Once the recoil cover is off there is a nut holding the recoil drive cup , makes it easy to move the crankshaft 

 

It is fairly easy to remove the recoil cover , if i am remembering right it is the bottom bolt that is the hardest to get at ---one thing for sure you will find out if that atv was even in the deep water / mud , cause if it was there will be mud inside that cover >>>>>  if there is mud in the recoil  , I will put diesel in a bucket , submerge the cover and pull the rope over and over and flush the dirt out ,then blow it out with air and repeat as many times as need to get it cleaned out 

 

I  have a set of 1/4 "  drive metric swivel socket and use a long extension ----without a swivel socket, if you have a 1/4 " drive universal and 10 mm socket , that will work , you can wrap a couple of wraps of  electrical tape around it to stiffen it up where it is more controllable and not all floppy 

 

image.pngimage.png

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From what I remember the valve setting is .006 to .008, is that right? i think i set mine at a comfortable.006 but too snug for the .008 gauge.

 

All i saw was 450ES on the video title. how old is this machine? How many miles? Rough miles? 
 

What’s the easiest way to check cam chain wear on these engines ?

 

 

sorry! i missed several pages on this one. I need to catch up

Edited by Goober

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4 hours ago, Fishfiles said:

Once the recoil cover is off there is a nut holding the recoil drive cup , makes it easy to move the crankshaft 

 

It is fairly easy to remove the recoil cover , if i am remembering right it is the bottom bolt that is the hardest to get at ---one thing for sure you will find out if that atv was even in the deep water / mud , cause if it was there will be mud inside that cover >>>>>  if there is mud in the recoil  , I will put diesel in a bucket , submerge the cover and pull the rope over and over and flush the dirt out ,then blow it out with air and repeat as many times as need to get it cleaned out 

 

I  have a set of 1/4 "  drive metric swivel socket and use a long extension ----without a swivel socket, if you have a 1/4 " drive universal and 10 mm socket , that will work , you can wrap a couple of wraps of  electrical tape around it to stiffen it up where it is more controllable and not all floppy 

 

 

 

Yah, the recoil looks like its 4-8mm nuts, should be straight forward. Once it's off turn the crank clockwise with facing it, right?

 

1 hour ago, Goober said:

From what I remember the valve setting is .006 to .008, is that right? i think i set mine at a comfortable.006 but too snug for the .008 gauge.

 

All i saw was 450ES on the video title. how old is this machine? How many miles? Rough miles? 
 

What’s the easiest way to check cam chain wear on these engines ?

 

 

sorry! i missed several pages on this one. I need to catch up

 

Good questions. Its a 2004, with 7,800 miles. Rough miles? That's a loaded question. I didn't buy it new so I can't comment on the validity what I was told but can only go on good faith on people telling the truth. But the story goes, original owner who bought it new had it for the first 9 years of its life, used it for trail riding and had a fairly large land he was using it on. The gentlemen I bought it from, had it for the other 7 years and he used it for Hunting and Riding, being Indigenous (Canadian) they are allowed to hunt year round (almost) so it was his main use (so he told me) he was older. Hence some early photos in my build/fix thread of the rear winch - it was used to pull/haul the dead game in or onto the ATV. Looking at the ATV, the seat was ripped, cosmetics have seen better days looks neglected for sure, suspension etc.. needed some bushings as expected, rear brakes seized (typical) etc. Have you looked at the Build Thread on some of the improvements I've made and how purdy she looks now? 🙂

 

However from running the bike during my ownership (2months), it ran fine, felt strong, quirks with shifting (replaced  greased worked amazing and runs nice, shifts strong. I've put over 500 miles on it in the 2 months of Ownership lol, I do enjoy it and have been 🙂 I've had other guys listen to it when purchased that know their way around engines etc. and no flags were raised besides the usual slight valve tick and that I should adjust the valves which is common. Well here we are.

 

Good question on checking the cam chain, is there a way without pulling the cover? I'd love to know and I could check and provide results. But the tick/rattle whatever we want to call it is coming from the top of the valve cover. I had my ear almost against the front crank cover to see if I can hear stuff in there and nothing. Additionally, keep in mind, the videos I provided were taken in my garage so the noise will be somewhat amplified.. so it may sound like a total ticking time bomb lol, but it might not be quite there yet 🥴

Edited by freebo86

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Make sure your oil filter isn’t installed backwards and leaving the top end dry.

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A leak in the exhaust can sometimes sound like a mechanical engine problem too.

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2 hours ago, Goober said:

Make sure your oil filter isn’t installed backwards and leaving the top end dry.


Confirmed it’s right, as I installed a new filter right after purchase. 

 

57 minutes ago, retro said:

A leak in the exhaust can sometimes sound like a mechanical engine problem too.


I know in my other thread I took apart the exhaust to fix the baffle. I tested my repair back then by putting my hand over the end and was seeing if exhaust was gonna blow/leak somewhere else due to a poor repair but the engine started stalling out, as it was suffocating so I think the exhaust is tight? 

Edited by freebo86

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20 hours ago, freebo86 said:


took them off, both are flat. Exhaust and intake, also on the lifter? The end that the screw pushes against is flat no concave or mushrooms like caps..

 

may be hard to see but they appear to be nice and even..
 

 

274E457F-F527-4F0F-BE5E-81DDB759A4E6.jpeg
 

49B6A73C-9DBF-4E7C-AD45-2384978956DD.jpeg

Those valves are way too loose. I can see the gap. I think you made a mistake. Make sure you are looking at thousanths not metric. I had a professional mechanic replace a head gasket on a Honda Accord and he set the valves using the metric number but looked at the wrong number on the gauge. I think you made a mistake somewhere.....that's all that makes sense to me right now.

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Just now, Misterclean said:

Those valves are way too loose. I can see the gap. I think you made a mistake. Make sure you are looking at thousanths not metric. I had a professional mechanic replace a head gasket on a Honda Accord and he set the valves using the metric number but looked at the wrong number on the gauge. I think you made a mistake somewhere.....that's all that makes sense to me right now.


Those are not set in the photos. I had just put them back on after removal to look at the ends for inspecting. 

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it was mentioned a vacum leek, simple way to see... is short blast of starting fluid ...if the rpm shoots up, then drops a short time afterwards then it very could be, but be very  carefull doing this test but the idol started acting crazy after the valve adjustment ? correct ? 

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33 minutes ago, _Wilson_™ said:

it was mentioned a vacum leek, simple way to see... is short blast of starting fluid ...if the rpm shoots up, then drops a short time afterwards then it very could be, but be very  carefull doing this test but the idol started acting crazy after the valve adjustment ? correct ? 


Yes and no. After the very first valve adjustment, I turned it on and it ran ‘okay’ the rattle concerned me so I messed with the idle screw. Ever since, it hasn’t been the same and I can’t fine tune it..

 

Spray starter fluid where?

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20 hours ago, retro said:

 

OK good! Lets check the camshaft for excessive wear!

 

Adjust both valves to .006" (Crank at TDC as normal) with the adjuster nuts tightened. Then turn the crank about 10 degrees and see if your lash is still .006" on the intake valve. Then turn the crank 10 more degrees and check the intake valve lash again. Keep checking every 10 degrees until the gap closes and the intake valve begins to open. Let us know whether the Intake valve lash measured consistently at .006", or did the lash open up?

 

Then turn the crank until you see the exhaust valve open & close completely. Turn the crank 10 degrees further & check the gap on the exhaust valve. Repeat every 10 degrees of crank rotation the same as you measured the Intake. Share that test result with us too.


So set it at .006, the gap maintained through the strokes except when the adjuster starts pushing the valve back down is when it tightens the gap and stays that way until it starts to open. But then the gap starts to again and maintains to .006”. This is for both intake and exhaust. 
 

Removing the recoil certainly helped turning using a socket. 
 

what’s next to check?

Edited by freebo86

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1 hour ago, freebo86 said:

So set it at .006, the gap maintained through the strokes except when the adjuster starts pushing the valve back down is when it tightens the gap and stays that way until it starts to open. But then the gap starts to again and maintains to .006”. This is for both intake and exhaust.

 

Great! It looks like I sent ya out on a wild goose chase. Sorry about that!

 

Next I would check for a small exhaust leak where the header pipe attaches to the head and also where the pipe joins the muffler. As for your poor running issue I feel that is probably carb related, or a vacuum leak.

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1 hour ago, retro said:

 

Great! It looks like I sent ya out on a wild goose chase. Sorry about that!

 

Next I would check for a small exhaust leak where the header pipe attaches to the head and also where the pipe joins the muffler. As for your poor running issue I feel that is probably carb related, or a vacuum leak.

 

It's good, its a learning experience!

 

So, I made some headway. After waiting for the replies to start rolling in, I decided to put it back together at .006 and see if I check for vacuum leaks. I checked the hoses around the carb and made sure all clamps are tight. The results? Well its been sitting OFF for 24hours and its COLD here, it started up pretty easy and good. It sounded really good too actually. No noise from engine at all. Like solid. The video below is 3minutes of the cold start, for the first minute of it running where it sounds like its jugging, I forgot my CHOKE is ON after a while so once I pushed that back in it smoothed out even nicer. The second video is after a few minutes where the noise starts, but after riding the bike around the block it seems that the noise get's quieter.

 

Am I crazy to think the way it sounds is okay and normal?

 

Now.. the valve noise came on after a bit, but it didnt seem as noisy as the other night. I kept checking the tach meter for RPM and I can't seem to dial it in. Few things happening on the teachmeter for RPM reading; 

1) I shift into gear and move, as I come to stop the RPM drops below the the IDLE setpoint I felt I had and bike wants to die or dies..

2) If it's idling and I hit the throttle the RPM goes up but seems to stick before it comes down and may drop further below than it even was before.  

3) Riding along, ie. going 4th, as I am coming down in speed I shift into 3rd let's say, I hit the throttle to accelerate out of the turn or what it may be and its if there is no speed until all of a sudden it picks up (this issue was there beforel all this started, almost as if the throttle is delayed (lack of fuel?))

4) After tonight that it warmed up, it was harder to start.

 

I took my carb cleaner spray and was spraying around the carb as it was running to see if any change in noise to test for vacuum but no changes. I think if I can dial the IDLE in, and actually let the bike warm up and take it for a longer ride, I did quick spin around the block for a couple of minutes and when I pulled into the garage it actually sounded and ran pretty good besides the IDLE being a bit wonky.

 

Thoughts? Fuel/Air issue with the Carb? Another way to test for vacuum leaks? 

 

Thanks again guys! I think I may be getting somewhere?

 

Cold Start.

 

This is after a few minutes.

 

Edited by freebo86

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I do not hear any valve train noise. I would check the exhaust for leaks next if I were you. While the motor & exhaust is cold start it and see if you can feel any exhaust escaping around the copper gasket (#1 in the parts fiche pic below) where the pipe attaches to the head. Also check the joint where the pipe attaches to the muffler the same way. The exhaust gets hot fast so be careful ya don't melt your skin on that pipe.

 

exhaust-parts.png

 

As for it not running right, I still think there must be something wrong with the carb.

 

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4 minutes ago, retro said:

I do not hear any valve train noise. I would check the exhaust for leaks next if I were you. While the motor & exhaust is cold start it and see if you can feel any exhaust escaping around the copper gasket (#1 in the parts fiche pic below) where the pipe attaches to the head. Also check the joint where the pipe attaches to the muffler the same way. The exhaust gets hot fast so be careful ya don't melt your skin on that pipe.

 

exhaust-parts.png

 

As for it not running right, I still think there must be something wrong with the carb.

 

 

Will check around exhaust tomorrow.

 

So the symptoms I outlined tie back to the carb.. What's the course of action to take here, remove it and clean it out & boil it. Or should it just be done with a rebuild kit? Recommendations?

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I would go with a full refresh on the carb since its 17 years old now. So a full disassembly & inspection, a thorough cleaning (a soak in Berrymans, scrub parts & passages with brushes etc.) like @Goober does with 'em, with a gasket kit and reassembly to factory specs as the service manual outlines. Its your call...

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1 minute ago, retro said:

I would go with a full refresh on the carb since its 17 years old now. So a full disassembly & inspection, a thorough cleaning (a soak in Berrymans, scrub parts & passages with brushes etc.) like @Goober does with 'em, with a gasket kit and reassembly to factory specs as the service manual outlines. Its your call...

 

So you talking just gasket or a full rebuilt (jets etc..)? I see price ranges from $15 and up. What particular brand? All Balls? Moose? Shindy?

Edited by freebo86

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Genuine Shindy ONLY. All other kit brands are china garbage.

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@retro I disagree. I hear what sounds like his rockers. Sounds wore on the pins.. doesn’t sound like chain slap at all. However I full agree after his statement on the carb & throttle that a rebuilt/refresh is in order. 

Edited by Wheeler
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7 minutes ago, Wheeler said:

@retro I disagree. I hear what sounds like his rockers. Sounds wore on the pins.. doesn’t sound like chain slap at all. However I full agree after his statement on the carb & throttle that a rebuilt/refresh is in order. 


What’s that mean, wore on the pins? There no noise at all until it warmed up a bit. 
 

Doesn’t sound as catastrophic as we first maybe has all believed or maybe questioned?

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You're probably right Wheeler! I normally do not listen to videos 'cause my hearing is so bad... you may have just bailed me out of another wild goose chase! :-)

 

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3 minutes ago, freebo86 said:

There no noise at all until it warmed up a bit.

 

Cold, conventional motor oil could possibly explain that since cold oil has a lower viscosity than hot oil. Cold oil is more resistant to flow than hot oil is so cold oil may take up more space in a loose clearance fit between moving parts, which provides more cushion & quiets loose clearances temporarily. Synthetic oils generally do not though... cold vs hot viscosity change is quite a bit less.

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18 minutes ago, freebo86 said:


What’s that mean, wore on the pins? There no noise at all until it warmed up a bit. 
 

Doesn’t sound as catastrophic as we first maybe has all believed or maybe questioned?


I agree fully that I didn’t hear the noise warming up in your first video, but I can hear what sounds like your rocker arms beatin around. Thank indicates wear on the pins they slide over. Only way to tell is pull valve cover & see if they have up & down play. A little side to side is normal but shouldn’t have any up & down. Be like inspecting a rod bearing. Maybe I’m wrong too, but it’s a good “guess” that noise. 
 

I would highly suggest u get the service manual downloaded if u Haven’t already, & pull the valve cover off. Inspect your chain, cam & gear, rockers etc. 
 

 

we can play guess that noise all day, but until u pull er apart to inspect, the game can go on for a while. Lol

Edited by Wheeler

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On the second video , it sounds to me  like metal on metal and it is loud , maybe lack of lubrication ? -----  

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