Adjusted Valves runs and sounds poorly

[freebo86 291]

Here is the cam followers. Left is exhaust, right intake. 
 

 

 

 

[retro 4,048]

Thanks for those pics! I have seen enough, it needs to be rebuilt beginning with the crankshaft, a fresh bore & a piston kit. You'll need a complete gasket kit + a seals kit, timing chain and possibly a cam & lifters & oil pump & more.

[retro 4,048]

Judging by the looks of the thrust side of the piston (bore shows extreme pressure too) my guess is that the top of the rod is bent. If I am right that motor was hydrolocked. You can fix it though... make it new, it will last ya the rest of your life if properly maintained.

[Goober 1,555]

Scratching on the cylinder walls—is that from rings dragging or maybe seds in the case?

[retro 4,048]

7 minutes ago, Goober said:

Scratching on the cylinder walls—is that from rings dragging or maybe seds in the case?

 

There are dents in the bore too, about midway of the stroke. The piston got jammed against the bore hard (bent the piston skirt), it likely has a bent rod & egg-shaped wrist pin bore to match the galling on the pin & rod. That motor was sunk & hydro'd, IMO.

[freebo86 291]

Well here is the front engine cover. I haven’t pulled the clutch off to get a clear shot of the chain.

 

This triangle piece came off when I pulled the cover as I had to wiggle it off with limited room.

 

Your input is appreciated. I am not sure how much info the full rebuild I am into...  
 

[bcsman 1,381]

@jeepwm69 yep I was fortunate enough like you to have help rebuilding my engine.  I had never attempted anything like it but @shadetree and @retro walked me thru with pics and phone calls until my 450ES was back together and running.  It's been 2 years now and still purring away, so @freebo86 take a lesson from a couple guys here, tear that thing down and ask for any and all the help you need.  You will have an engine as stated above that will last a long time.....

[bcsman 1,381]

@freebo86 to make it easy removing the clutches use an air impact to loosen the big nuts, should be able to spin it off without having to hold it while trying to use a ratchet.

[87Iroc 344]

I rebuilt my 450 last summer with the help of shade. Its a rabbit hole for sure. I replaced all the bearings, seals, and other misc parts inside well. Little oil pump is over 100 bucks just for it. Crankshaft was 250 from Mr Crankshaft including shipping back(I think it was 15-20 to get it to western TN/KY/AR for me to ship it).

 

Mr Crankshaft will take care of the crank for you no problem. Super nice guy. If you have any mechanical knowledge its daunting....but do-able.

 

Don't use a torque wrench btw. Bad on anything going in to aluminum. Ask me how I know.

 

Edited February 25, 2021 by 87Iroc

[freebo86 291]

I used the wrist pin last night to check for play at the rod. No up down, what so ever. I took the calipers again and measured the wrist pin throughout various locations the measurement was consistent down to .001 mm and within service limit.

 

I would like to confirm if the chain timed time, based on the photo and limited view I have currently it looked like the chain is stretched. Before I started this entire procedure I had set the engine at TDC, compression, well after last night pulling the front cover the clutch turned a bit which of course threw the TDC off. Now my question is, can I just align the flywheel at the T again and check the alignment marks? I guess does it matter if the T is at Compression or Exhaust stroke?

 

Still need to evaluate how big of a rabbit hole we go down.

[87Iroc 344]

10 hours ago, bcsman said:

@freebo86 to make it easy removing the clutches use an air impact to loosen the big nuts, should be able to spin it off without having to hold it while trying to use a ratchet.

 

I wouldn't even try it w/o the impact. 

[87Iroc 344]

7 minutes ago, freebo86 said:

I used the wrist pin last night to check for play at the rod. No up down, what so ever. I took the calipers again and measured the wrist pin throughout various locations the measurement was consistent down to .001 mm and within service limit.

 

I would like to confirm if the chain timed time, based on the photo and limited view I have currently it looked like the chain is stretched. Before I started this entire procedure I had set the engine at TDC, compression, well after last night pulling the front cover the clutch turned a bit which of course threw the TDC off. Now my question is, can I just align the flywheel at the T again and check the alignment marks? I guess does it matter if the T is at Compression or Exhaust stroke?

 

Still need to evaluate how big of a rabbit hole we go down.

 

I talked to Mr Crankshaft guy(Vince I think) for about 20 min on the phone one day. He was trying to help me diagnose my problem. He told me what to look for for a bent rod. The wrist pin was one check. The bearing at the bottom was another. Pull up/down/etc. Try twisting the rod on the crank as well. He said when he got mine essentially it didn't' need rebuilt but he did it anyway as the wrist pin was a bit looser than he liked to see. I had just a bit of play in mine...I could feel it.

[87Iroc 344]

11 minutes ago, freebo86 said:

I used the wrist pin last night to check for play at the rod. No up down, what so ever. I took the calipers again and measured the wrist pin throughout various locations the measurement was consistent down to .001 mm and within service limit.

 

I would like to confirm if the chain timed time, based on the photo and limited view I have currently it looked like the chain is stretched. Before I started this entire procedure I had set the engine at TDC, compression, well after last night pulling the front cover the clutch turned a bit which of course threw the TDC off. Now my question is, can I just align the flywheel at the T again and check the alignment marks? I guess does it matter if the T is at Compression or Exhaust stroke?

 

Still need to evaluate how big of a rabbit hole we go down.

 

I haven't read the whole thread...but to check timing. Do you know about the pull start cog in the back having a line on it with an arrow on the case to align for timing? Much easier to use than the...what I call almost worthless, plug in side of the case.

Edited February 25, 2021 by 87Iroc

[freebo86 291]

5 minutes ago, 87Iroc said:

 

I wouldn't even try it w/o the impact. 

 

I have a impact, that's not a issue.

[87Iroc 344]

Had to find pic

[freebo86 291]

3 minutes ago, 87Iroc said:

Had to find pic

 

 

Thanks. Yes thats the time markings on the chain sprocket and camshaft retainer? Does the engine need to be at TDC? And if so, does it matter if its Compression or Exhaust matter?

[87Iroc 344]

That’s on rear of engine under pull start cover on my 450.  
 

tDC would be compression. Only way to get rear mark and timing mark on can to line up. For just checking deck clearance To check bent rod.  it doesn’t matter. 

[freebo86 291]

4 minutes ago, 87Iroc said:

That’s on rear of engine under pull start cover on my 450.  
 

tDC would be compression. Only way to get rear mark and timing mark on can to line up. For just checking deck clearance To check bent rod.  it doesn’t matter. 

 

Ah! Ok, yes where the pull starter grips to turn the fly wheel - makes sense now. Ok so line that up and then I can check to see where the chain sprocket is in relation to the casing alignment mark at the front? And see if I have skipped a tooth.

 

The service manual talks about looking at the little view hole at the side of the flywheel to align?

[87Iroc 344]

7 minutes ago, freebo86 said:

 

Ah! Ok, yes where the pull starter grips to turn the fly wheel - makes sense now. Ok so line that up and then I can check to see where the chain sprocket is in relation to the casing alignment mark at the front? And see if I have skipped a tooth.

 

The service manual talks about looking at the little view hole at the side of the flywheel to align?

 

There are 3 marks. Cam, Crank View Hole, and then on the pull start. Shade told me about the pull start one. It was a game cahnger. Mine was on 'upside down' due to previous owner. If your cover has never been off it should be right. I flipped mine over and started using it. It'll be obvious if its 180 out. Just keep in mind that if it jumped  tooth, the front won't be off that much.

 

Yes, line that up on TDC stroke and the cam, that mark, and timing hole in the side should all line up of its on time. I don't really pay much attention to hole in the side as its hard to gauge 'what angle should I look at this' etc to check it.

 

MIne, after putting it back together, the timing mark was off on the front by maybe a 1/4 tooth due to sprocket wear on the crank. It was very close...but not quite 100% right. No way to fix that w/o a new crank...but its not a big deal and mine runs fine. and I believe I was told people have run much worse.

 

 

Edited February 25, 2021 by 87Iroc

[freebo86 291]

14 minutes ago, 87Iroc said:

 

There are 3 marks. Cam, Crank View Hole, and then on the pull start. Shade told me about the pull start one. It was a game cahnger. Mine was on 'upside down' due to previous owner. If your cover has never been off it should be right. I flipped mine over and started using it. It'll be obvious if its 180 out. Just keep in mind that if it jumped  tooth, the front won't be off that much.

 

Yes, line that up on TDC stroke and the cam, that mark, and timing hole in the side should all line up of its on time. I don't really pay much attention to hole in the side as its hard to gauge 'what angle should I look at this' etc to check it.

 

MIne, after putting it back together, the timing mark was off on the front by maybe a 1/4 tooth due to sprocket wear on the crank. It was very close...but not quite 100% right. No way to fix that w/o a new crank...but its not a big deal and mine runs fine. and I believe I was told people have run much worse.

 

 

 

Thanks friend.

I had the pull start cover off a few weeks ago, as I used a socket to turn the crank to align the T inside the view hole in order to set TDC for valves. And your right. pain in the !, due to angles etc. I will pull the start cover off again and see for the marks I didnt know they existed back there. 

 

So align pull start marks, then look at view hold should be at TDC (hopefully) and then look at the front to see where the sprocket and camshaft marks line up with the casing.

[87Iroc 344]

Yep....

 

I'm only regurgitating what I learned from Shade and others on here during my 3-4 month saga of getting my 450 running last year. Many of those guys have touched dozens or hundreds of bikes. I've only worked on 1.

 

Hopefully yours has the same mark. 

Edited February 25, 2021 by 87Iroc

[jdlmodelt 38]

1 hour ago, freebo86 said:

 

 

Thanks. Yes thats the time markings on the chain sprocket and camshaft retainer? Does the engine need to be at TDC? And if so, does it matter if its Compression or Exhaust matter?

TDC on compression stroke. both cam lobes should be pointed down and both intake and exhaust should be closed. How were you planning to check with with your top end disassembled?

[freebo86 291]

1 hour ago, jdlmodelt said:

TDC on compression stroke. both cam lobes should be pointed down and both intake and exhaust should be closed. How were you planning to check with with your top end disassembled?

 

Exactly. That's why I asked if it matters if its compression or exhaust for the timing verification. Obviously if it matters then I can't verify it or don't know how?

[freebo86 291]

Bump, no info?

 

Is my assumption correct that by aligning the T either in the view hole or by using the pull starter line, the timing can be verified on the front chain and cam alignment marks? It doesn't matter if its Compression or Exhaust stroke for this. Considering it cant be determined which one it is since the top end, valves etc. have been removed? 

 

I know on compression the lobes are pointing down, but how can you confirm this I guess through the engine hole where the cam followers can be pulled from to see if lobes are up or down?

[jeepwm69 7,599]

The T in the the view hole will show up on both compression and exhaust strokes. 

 

You need to look at pages 7-22 to 7-25 in the FSM to see the cam sprocket marks. 

 

There's the cam sprocket mount, the T in the sight hole, and the mark on the rear flywheel that should all be aligned if everything is as it should be.

 

If you think about it, the T is on the side of the flywheel.  The mark Iroc posted above is also on the flywheel, so if the mark Iroc posted is lined up, the T will HAVE to be in the sight hole.

 

You'll need to verify that with the mark Iroc posted on the flywheel lined up, the cam sprocket lines up with the index mark, and the cam lobes are down.  You can use a flashlilght and shine down in the push rod holes and see the cam lobes and whether or not they are pointing downwards (or stick your finger in there and feel them).