Adjusted Valves runs and sounds poorly

[freebo86 291]

1 hour ago, jeepwm69 said:

The T in the the view hole will show up on both compression and exhaust strokes. 

 

You need to look at pages 7-22 to 7-25 in the FSM to see the cam sprocket marks. 

 

There's the cam sprocket mount, the T in the sight hole, and the mark on the rear flywheel that should all be aligned if everything is as it should be.

 

If you think about it, the T is on the side of the flywheel.  The mark Iroc posted above is also on the flywheel, so if the mark Iroc posted is lined up, the T will HAVE to be in the sight hole.

 

You'll need to verify that with the mark Iroc posted on the flywheel lined up, the cam sprocket lines up with the index mark, and the cam lobes are down.  You can use a flashlilght and shine down in the push rod holes and see the cam lobes and whether or not they are pointing downwards (or stick your finger in there and feel them).

Yes that I understood. I guess my question is, does it matter if it’s the T on compression or exhaust stroke? Because the T will show in both instances.. does exhaust or compression even matter for checking this alignment?

 

[freebo86 291]

So took the recoil starter off. Turned it under the T, on the view port and recoil end marks line up. I looked at the cam in the front the the punch marks lines up with the casing notch. 
 

I just can’t tell if the lobes are down or up? If I keep turning until next time T is shown, then the timing punch mark on cam sprocket is 180deg off from the casing..

[Wheeler 2,525]

Why are u trying to mess with timing while tore down? Makes ZERO sense. Rebuild it, then get ur timing done. Ur wasting time...

Edited February 26, 2021 by Wheeler

[_Wilson_™ 6,563]

i was wondering that myself for a while....you can't just jump in the middle of a thread, and start posting help without back reading. 

Edited February 26, 2021 by _Wilson_™

[freebo86 291]

Want to see if we jumped time before going further with the tear down. Just a test boys, not setting time now want to see where time is and what it looks like and if we skipped a tooth or two. Just for a peace of mind.

 

Chain looks stretched, thoughts? Tensioner too? I still don’t understand which tensioner everyone is replacing? The one that mounts case down with the two bolts from the top or the one that’s inside the case?

 

didn’t feel like pulling clutch out tonight.. too lazy. 

[freebo86 291]

Another question, service manual calls for a special tool to pull the clutch off when nut is off. Really needed?

 

I got a impact, I can pull the nut but will the clutch just slide off?

[87Iroc 344]

20 minutes ago, freebo86 said:

Another question, service manual calls for a special tool to pull the clutch off when nut is off. Really needed?

 

I got a impact, I can pull the nut but will the clutch just slide off?

 

Pull the nut. Then whack side of centrifugal clutch with a hammer while pulling on it. SOmetimes you have to flip side to side while pulling on it with your hand. Eventually it'll pop off in your hand. Eventually=maybe a half dozen good firm whacks. I whacked close to the back so I didnt' start to cave the drum in. Back close to where it bends around toward the crankshaft.

Edited February 26, 2021 by 87Iroc

[retro 4,048]

5 hours ago, freebo86 said:

Want to see if we jumped time before going further with the tear down. Just a test boys, not setting time now want to see where time is and what it looks like and if we skipped a tooth or two. Just for a peace of mind.

 

Chain looks stretched, thoughts? Tensioner too? I still don’t understand which tensioner everyone is replacing? The one that mounts case down with the two bolts from the top or the one that’s inside the case?

 

didn’t feel like pulling clutch out tonight.. too lazy. 

 

Whether the cam lobes are pointing up or down is completely irrelevant. Just line up the two cam timing marks (the dot on the cam matches the pointer on the case) then verify that the "T" in the sight window lines up too. Done.

 

You'll have to take the chain off to check the wear on the plastic guide & tensioner block. You may need to replace one, both, or neither one....

 

By the way, that cam chain doesn't look overly worn to me. The Lifters you showed us earlier didn't look bad either. So take the cam out and check the comp release over good next.

[freebo86 291]

8 hours ago, retro said:

 

Whether the cam lobes are pointing up or down is completely irrelevant. Just line up the two cam timing marks (the dot on the cam matches the pointer on the case) then verify that the "T" in the sight window lines up too. Done.

 

You'll have to take the chain off to check the wear on the plastic guide & tensioner block. You may need to replace one, both, or neither one....

 

By the way, that cam chain doesn't look overly worn to me. The Lifters you showed us earlier didn't look bad either. So take the cam out and check the comp release over good next.

 

First positive news in this thread. Decided to order a new cam chain, D.I.D since im this far in anyways. Need to check the guides.

 

Is the tensions supposed to be this far out?

 

[jdlmodelt 38]

8 hours ago, retro said:

 

Whether the cam lobes are pointing up or down is completely irrelevant. Just line up the two cam timing marks (the dot on the cam matches the pointer on the case) then verify that the "T" in the sight window lines up too. Done.

 

You'll have to take the chain off to check the wear on the plastic guide & tensioner block. You may need to replace one, both, or neither one....

 

By the way, that cam chain doesn't look overly worn to me. The Lifters you showed us earlier didn't look bad either. So take the cam out and check the comp release over good next.

good deal. I thought he had already disassembled the top end.

[freebo86 291]

11 minutes ago, jdlmodelt said:

good deal. I thought he had already disassembled the top end.

 

I did. The piston, top head and jug are all off.

[_Wilson_™ 6,563]

he did, the head is off, and piston out, page 9, and 10. 

[jdlmodelt 38]

6 minutes ago, _Wilson_™ said:

he did, the head is off, and piston out, page 9, and 10. 

aha! chain driven cam that drives pushrods. So cam isn't an overhead configuration. I missed that.

[jeepwm69 7,600]

If the line on the flywheel is lined up, cam lobes are down, and the mark on the cam sprocket all line up, it's in time.

 

I've had one that was 180 deg out, and would still run, but it ran like crap (500, not a 450), but looking at the marks on your cam and cam sprocket, it's as it should be.

 

Given how little stretch you have on that chain, I'm betting the chain guides and tensioner will be fine. 

 

And I use a cheap three jaw puller to get the cent clutch off.  Makes it easy.

[freebo86 291]

5 minutes ago, jeepwm69 said:

If the line on the flywheel is lined up, cam lobes are down, and the mark on the cam sprocket all line up, it's in time.

 

I've had one that was 180 deg out, and would still run, but it ran like crap (500, not a 450), but looking at the marks on your cam and cam sprocket, it's as it should be.

 

Given how little stretch you have on that chain, I'm betting the chain guides and tensioner will be fine. 

 

And I use a cheap three jaw puller to get the cent clutch off.  Makes it easy.

 

More good news? Made my day! I guess maybe im wasting my time replacing that chain then..

 

Will be fun getting those old gaskets off the cover.

 

Also, gotta remove the clutch adjusting bolt mine is seized in there. Does it just punch out towards the inside of the cover or to the outside? Manual is quite vague on it.

 

Edited February 26, 2021 by freebo86

[jeepwm69 7,600]

Eh, that falls into the MAW that consumes all.

 

Might As Well.....you know, while you have it apart.......

 

And as @retro said, you still probably outta pull that cam and check it, and that connecting rod will not a lot more checking before you're done.

[bcsman 1,381]

The plunger on the chain tensioner, if working properly, will extend out as far as needed to keep the chain from skipping....it can be checked for operation with the small adjustment screw at the top

[freebo86 291]

Well here is an update for you all. 
 

Intake valve seat can be pulled out by hand. Looks like I’ll need a new head...

 

 

[Goober 1,555]

If you use carb cleaner on those old gaskets, you’ll be able to scrape them off using those plastic scraper blades. I wouldn’t use a metal scraper 

Edited February 26, 2021 by Goober

[jdlmodelt 38]

3 hours ago, freebo86 said:

Well here is an update for you all. 
 

Intake valve seat can be pulled out by hand. Looks like I’ll need a new head...

 

 

Or have a machinist install a new seat. I wish you were out here. my guy does stuff for way too cheap.

 

[retro 4,048]

6 hours ago, freebo86 said:

Well here is an update for you all. 
 

Intake valve seat can be pulled out by hand. Looks like I’ll need a new head...

 

 

 

Great news! You found the source of the noise & compression problems your motor has, congrats and good work!

 

So you have learned that the head is damaged (the cam is probably in good condition), the connecting rod is galled up (whether its bent or not doesn't matter), the bore is worn out and the piston looks just as bad... and it probably needs a new cam chain to insure that it lasts a long life once it is put back together. So it looks like a crank kit, cam chain, a used head, new piston kit + rebore the jug, new seals & gaskets might make it like new again. Have you noticed anything else it might need?

[retro 4,048]

12 hours ago, freebo86 said:

Also, gotta remove the clutch adjusting bolt mine is seized in there. Does it just punch out towards the inside of the cover or to the outside? Manual is quite vague on it.

 

Try soaking that with a good penetrating oil for a day or two.

[freebo86 291]

8 hours ago, retro said:

 

Great news! You found the source of the noise & compression problems your motor has, congrats and good work!

 

So you have learned that the head is damaged (the cam is probably in good condition), the connecting rod is galled up (whether its bent or not doesn't matter), the bore is worn out and the piston looks just as bad... and it probably needs a new cam chain to insure that it lasts a long life once it is put back together. So it looks like a crank kit, cam chain, a used head, new piston kit + rebore the jug, new seals & gaskets might make it like new again. Have you noticed anything else it might need?

Intake valve is beat. 
 

Cranksahft is discontinued from Honda.. mr crankshaft said he’s had issues with Canadian shipments.. also none around here. I called a ATV salvage yard in Canada and they don’t have a head or crankshaft.
 

A used cylinder head how do I know I won’t have this seat issue? Again, a used head there is some on eBay but it’s risky buying without seeing it first and none around me here. A new one is $300+. Same applies to the crank buying one through eBay no idea what I’m getting. 
 

Not sure what to do.. this ATV may be a lost cause. 

Edited February 27, 2021 by freebo86

[_Wilson_™ 6,563]

didnt you have eyes on a used condition complete motor ? i don't recall the details. 

[freebo86 291]

Just now, _Wilson_™ said:

didnt you have eyes on a used condition complete motor ? i don't recall the details. 

I did, it’s from a 2001 450ES with 5.6k miles on it. The head isn’t interchangeable with a 2004 based on partzilla. The crank is. 
 

He sent me a video.. the thing sounds horrendous. Most likely everything shot inside of it. And he wants almost $600 for it.