Adjusted Valves runs and sounds poorly

[retro 4,048]

15 minutes ago, freebo86 said:

Please look at this video, this my my rod with a brand new OEM Honda Wrist Pin I picked up today to test the play and see. Is this excessive?

 

Yes, that rod is junk.

[retro 4,048]

17 minutes ago, freebo86 said:

 Looked at it. His rod with a brand new OEM Honda wrist pin has way more play than mine. He dropped the entire engine price down to $100.

 

Is the head, guides & valves good? Is the head worth $100 to you? Honestly, since you have learned that the crank is bad in that 400 motor, perhaps that motor is so worn out that it isn't worth a nickel. I am not there to make that call... but I'm leaning away, I think you can do better than that. Be patient. Don't give up, something will come along....

[freebo86 291]

9 minutes ago, retro said:

 

Yes, that rod is junk.

You know of a video that shows a good rod? Because I honestly do not think I will find a USED Rod with less play than that. And I’m at a point where I just don’t know if I can swallow the price of a new rod. 
 

The play I show is nothing compared to his when I tried it. His wrist pin also you could feel and see the gallow. In my old wrist pin it is not seen or felt. 
 

Using my digital caliper when I measure my old wrist pin to the new they are on par for measurements off by .001” if that. 

 

3 minutes ago, retro said:

 

Is the head, guides & valves good? Is the head worth $100 to you? Honestly, since you have learned that the crank is bad in that 400 motor, perhaps that motor is so worn out that it isn't worth a nickel. I am not there to make that call... but I'm leaning away, I think you can do better than that. Be patient. Don't give up, something will come along....

The valve cover was still on it so couldn’t see the guides, seats etc. 

[Goober 1,555]

I was a little confused by your assessment of the 400 engine.

if it’s worse than yours I think you did the right thing by walking away.

[Fishfiles 20,145]

Here is a pic I found , the 450 head is on the right , 400 on the left  , you can see the difference in the combustion dome 

[retro 4,048]

28 minutes ago, freebo86 said:

You know of a video that shows a good rod? Because I honestly do not think I will find a USED Rod with less play than that. And I’m at a point where I just don’t know if I can swallow the price of a new rod. 
 

The play I show is nothing compared to his when I tried it. His wrist pin also you could feel and see the gallow. In my old wrist pin it is not seen or felt. 
 

Using my digital caliper when I measure my old wrist pin to the new they are on par for measurements off by .001” if that. 

 

This is a situation where commentators on forums can (and often do!) become very hazardous to your financial health. 🙂

 

To be honest, I cannot be 100% sure that your rod is bad. I can't see it and feel it firsthand like you can, so you've got to judge the value of my replies and toss out anything I say that runs counter to what you can see and feel yourself.

 

I want to believe that your rod is fine. So do me a favor and answer two questions for me, please? Look inside the bore of the top of the rod using a light... clean the bore out first and look it over really good. Can you see any galling in there? Can you see the factory cross-hatch honing marks in the metal, is there any place inside that bore where the cross-hatch pattern is worn through, to leave the bore smooth & shiny? Thanks.

[freebo86 291]

7 minutes ago, Fishfiles said:

Here is a pic I found , the 450 head is on the right , 400 on the left  , you can see the difference in the combustion dome 

Is that 450 head ready to be shipped to me @Fishfiles? For a price of course?!

[Fishfiles 20,145]

9 minutes ago, freebo86 said:

Is that 450 head ready to be shipped to me @Fishfiles? For a price of course?!

That 450 head is still in that bag ready to go  , pretty , eh , I can't let that one go , it is a spare , but I should  have a good used one , that will need a lap job and new stem seals 

 

 

[freebo86 291]

3 minutes ago, Fishfiles said:

That 450 head is still in that bag ready to go  , pretty , eh , I can't let that one go , it is a spare , but I should  have a good used one , that will need a lap job and new stem seals 

 

 

I got brand new OEM seals. I can lap it or get it done. As long as the seats and guides are good.  give it a thought.

 

I’m going to check mom and pops ATV repair shops Monday for used head. I’d trust buying used more from you than Booby Joe on eBay. 

 

[freebo86 291]

10 hours ago, retro said:

 

This is a situation where commentators on forums can (and often do!) become very hazardous to your financial health. 🙂

 

To be honest, I cannot be 100% sure that your rod is bad. I can't see it and feel it firsthand like you can, so you've got to judge the value of my replies and toss out anything I say that runs counter to what you can see and feel yourself.

 

I want to believe that your rod is fine. So do me a favor and answer two questions for me, please? Look inside the bore of the top of the rod using a light... clean the bore out first and look it over really good. Can you see any galling in there? Can you see the factory cross-hatch honing marks in the metal, is there any place inside that bore where the cross-hatch pattern is worn through, to leave the bore smooth & shiny? Thanks.

Tried to get a good look, the bore is not all shiny. I think I can see some cross hatching in there. Also, I tried twisting and pulling the rod - no play. It’s solid. 
 

[retro 4,048]

Your response seems a bit vague & unsure but if you are confident then you may as well run with that crank & rod. In your video you were checking that rod wrong anyway.... wobbling the wrist pin inside the bore of the rod determines nothing... ya gotta push & pull vertically to determine if there is any slop in it. So I'm gonna support your opinion of it. Lets move on.... replace the cam chain, the head and get the jug rebored with a new piston kit in hand so you can ride it!

[freebo86 291]

1 minute ago, retro said:

Your response seems a bit vague & unsure but if you are confident then you may as well run with that crank & rod. In your video you were checking that rod wrong anyway.... wobbling the wrist pin inside the bore of the rod determines nothing... ya gotta push & pull vertically to determine if there is any slop in it. So I'm gonna support your opinion of it. Lets move on.... replace the cam chain, the head and get the jug rebored with a new piston kit in hand so you can ride it!

Wait. So vertical movement of the wrist pin inside the rod bore? Or vertical play of the actual rod? Because neither of those I have. Also the rod has not twisting play at all. 

[retro 4,048]

Yes, vertical play in the top (& bottom bearing) of the rod is all that you are interested in determining. Your rod is good else you would have felt some play in it, or saw some galling or excessive wear in the top of it. Good work!

[Goober 1,555]

Just a question. Is the bottom of the case pretty clean?  Well i mean there’s always a little sludge left during an oil change. Anything unusual?

whats normal inspection procedure for bottom end if you’re not disassembling it?

 

[87Iroc 344]

As an awareness...

 

You seem hesitant to tear the engine down further w/o being sure it's bad. You can split cases w/minimal effort if you have it stripped down and inspect everything inside. From bearings to gears to anything else. Slap a new gasket on it and put it back together w/o messing with the crank. Give you a chacne to check your pickup screen and be sure everything inside looks good. I can think of one seal you'd likely have to replace(Front output seal for front driveshaft) as it'll likely get chewed up a bit.

 

YOu just need to lay the case on its rear(I made a stand out of some scrap lumber I had. Still use it for this and that...lol. Its in the garage getting kicked around undder the bench)

Edited February 28, 2021 by 87Iroc

[freebo86 291]

4 hours ago, Goober said:

Just a question. Is the bottom of the case pretty clean?  Well i mean there’s always a little sludge left during an oil change. Anything unusual?

whats normal inspection procedure for bottom end if you’re not disassembling it?

 

The front case once opened was very clean. I ran my finger through the bottom of it it to see if I could pick up sediment and there wasn’t anything. Just some oil. 
 

When this goes back together I’m going to run some Castrol oil (no load on engine) and flush it a couple of times before I fill it with GN4 Honda oil to actually run as a safe measure.. . 

[retro 4,048]

You mentioned break-in motor oil so lets talk about that subject before we forget about it. During break-in of the new bore & piston you should use a conventional motor oil in the sump. After the motor is fully broken in (~15 hours of run time) I recommend that you change to a full synthetic motor oil. The motor is an oil-cooled type so you need a good synthetic in it for it's extended temperature handling capabilities versus conventional oils. Never break-in a new motor with synthetic oil in the sump. But switch to synthetic as soon as the cylinder break-in completes.

[freebo86 291]

Finally got back at it tonight again. Pulled the clutches, chain and camshaft. 
 

Can someone explain to me how is this tensioner supposed to be pulled back in? It says to turn it clockwise but if I put a screw driver in there to clip the notches it’s not easy it keeps slipping.

 

[87Iroc 344]

58 minutes ago, freebo86 said:

Finally got back at it tonight again. Pulled the clutches, chain and camshaft. 
 

Can someone explain to me how is this tensioner supposed to be pulled back in? It says to turn it clockwise but if I put a screw driver in there to clip the notches it’s not easy it keeps slipping.

 

 

Just twist it if I recall. Pulls right back up. I had trouble with mine slipping as well. I think I used a screwdriver with like a 1/8" blad on it...maybe 3/16. I recall it not engaging quite right but it pulled back up in just fine. Didn't take much force that I recall.

[bcsman 1,382]

Yes from memory you dont turn the slotted part, there should be a small screw head down inside there...

 

When fully retracted it should lock in place so the chain can be installed , then release for the tension...

[bcsman 1,382]

Did you clean all the parts or is that how they looked when removed?  Seem pretty clean..

 

So sounds like your tensioner should be ok if it retracted and extends....

[jdlmodelt 38]

just make sure you release that tensioner when you get the cam/chain installed. would be a bummer to forget. 🙂

[freebo86 291]

Boys, what’s the thoughts on the cylinder head gasket (metal one) to re-using it? 
 

I know the jug gasket is paper so that’s a replacement for sure. 
 

Im thinking going OEM oversized piston with rings. So it won’t come with gaskets and I’ll have to order it vs. aftermarket 

Edited March 1, 2021 by freebo86

[Fishfiles 20,145]

I wouldn't reuse the head gasket 

 

I'm bummed out the shift motor didn't work out for you , I should have taken it apart first ---- at least you got another  speed sensor that might be good 

[freebo86 291]

And we are confident a 98-01 450ES Head will fit on a 04? I may just bite the bullet on a new one from ebay..