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freebo86

Adjusted Valves runs and sounds poorly

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6 hours ago, Wheeler said:


I agree fully that I didn’t hear the noise warming up in your first video, but I can hear what sounds like your rocker arms beatin around. Thank indicates wear on the pins they slide over. Only way to tell is pull valve cover & see if they have up & down play. A little side to side is normal but shouldn’t have any up & down. Be like inspecting a rod bearing. Maybe I’m wrong too, but it’s a good “guess” that noise. 
 

I would highly suggest u get the service manual downloaded if u Haven’t already, & pull the valve cover off. Inspect your chain, cam & gear, rockers etc. 
 

 

we can play guess that noise all day, but until u pull er apart to inspect, the game can go on for a while. Lol


Can you be more specific what you mean by rocker arms? Again, engine terminology I am not too familiar with. You mean these circled? 

 

FFCC7EE9-61F0-4038-B3EC-FFF7928854DF.jpeg
 

44 minutes ago, Fishfiles said:

On the second video , it sounds to me  like metal on metal and it is loud , maybe lack of lubrication ? -----  


Lack of lubrication wouldn’t that have caused a disastrous failure at this point of ownership? 

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9 minutes ago, freebo86 said:


Can you be more specific what you mean by rocker arms? Again, engine terminology I am not too familiar with. You mean these circled? 

 

FFCC7EE9-61F0-4038-B3EC-FFF7928854DF.jpeg
 


Lack of lubrication wouldn’t that have caused a disastrous failure at this point of ownership? 

Maybe it is on the road to there !! 

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I have two 450s and neither one sounds anything like your second video , sounds like a black smith shoppe going on in there , ping , ping , ping 

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@freebo86 yes but the entire rocker arm. I see the 450 has a u shaped cap holding them down or something. Either way glad u got er off. Now inspect it all for any signs of wear, irregularities, ect. Do the rocker arms have odd wear marks? 

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i hear the little man with the hammer too, clear as a bell. in the last part of the forth video, (1st page) it does seem to get louder, at one point. could be movement of the camra... 

 

Edit: also in the second video (3rd page) at one point it's intermittent.

Edited by _Wilson_™
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10 hours ago, freebo86 said:

 What's the course of action to take here, remove it and clean it out & boil it. Or should it just be done with a rebuild kit? Recommendations?


The copper gasket #1 where the header bolts up might be loose CAREFUL don’t simply overtighten and break off the header studs! Also #10 the header muffler joint could be leaking.

 

no don’t boil the carb very harsh way to treat it.
you have to inspect it first to see what might be causing problems. When i clean a carb i never boil it. I clean off the outside of a carb with Deep Creep and toothbrushes first. Then soapy water to remove the oil being careful not to get anything in the carb.

During disassembly you’re looking for damaged seals, missing parts, jet obstructions, etc. i clean the body first, then the bowl, then the little parts. Trying to avoid getting dirty fluid into the tiny body passages—especially that primer passage. I would only soak a carb body or bowl in clean fluid —
 

yes genuine Shindy in the package 

or Honda OEM gasket kit. OEM primer plunger and choke valve.

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1 hour ago, Wheeler said:

@freebo86 yes but the entire rocker arm. I see the 450 has a u shaped cap holding them down or something. Either way glad u got er off. Now inspect it all for any signs of wear, irregularities, ect. Do the rocker arms have odd wear marks? 

 

Well if I rock that rocker back and forth as in towards the valve and back it has movement (the gap I set obviously gives it room to move), every video I saw for doing valve adjustment it seemed like this is perfectly normal? No wear marks on them.

 

Not my photo, but this is what the underside would look like. Where exactly am I looking for anything odd?

image.png

 

 

1 hour ago, _Wilson_™ said:

i hear the little man with the hammer too, clear as a bell. in the last part of the forth video, (1st page) it does seem to get louder, at one point. could be movement of the camra... 

 

Edit: also in the second video (3rd page) at one point it's intermittent.

 

It is friend. I fired up the bike this morning before heading out, to hear it sound and see. It starts beautifully, better than before actually. Runs dead quiet. I tap the throttle and the black smith gets to work. Or as @Fishfiles says on the road to a disaster..

 

Even at one point yesterday, after taking it for a spin around the block. Pulling in, the idle settled and the engine sounded healthy...but then the black smith comes and goes to work.. he's not a consistent worker.

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on the 1st video (3rd page) just after you start it.. there's another heavy  knock along with the tick.... anyone else hear that ? 

 

 

Edited by _Wilson_™
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This examination via you tube is getting interesting. I hope too many worms don't get out of the can. It is important to strongly consider that two or three things are happening here. The running problem is almost certainly a carb problem. I would do the total carb job as already suggested but I would also drain the fuel tank and inspect it just to be absolutely sure. Disassemble the petcock too. The intermittent sound may be some sheet metal on the heat shield or something similar. I can't imagine what it could be on the inside that could make an intermittent sound like that. Obviously we aren't there in person so our intuition is limited. I'm almost certain I heard cam chain slap. Slap can vary in it's sounds because of the harmonics involved and with the thump of the engine. I'm almost certain it's harmonics causing the tin sound coming and going too. We are anxiously waiting for your next action.......well I am/ LOL

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15 minutes ago, _Wilson_™ said:

on the 1st video (3rd page) just after you start it.. there's another heavy  knock along with the tick.... anyone else hear that ? Me too. It may be chain slap. Tough to tell because we aren't there.

I think that's chain slap?

Edited by Misterclean
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@Misterclean to me it didn’t sound like chain slap. But with the valve cover off he will be able to check & verify if I’m wrong.. 

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1 hour ago, _Wilson_™ said:

on the 1st video (3rd page) just after you start it.. there's another heavy  knock along with the tick.... anyone else hear that ? 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Misterclean said:

I think that's chain slap?

 

You guys missed the below sentence? Listen to the engine starting at about 1:25minutes. Do you hear then still?

 

From my video post on that page.

Quote

 

The video below is 3minutes of the cold start, for the first minute of it running where it sounds like its jugging, I forgot my CHOKE is ON so once I pushed that back in it smoothed out even nicer. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by freebo86

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13 minutes ago, jeepwm69 said:

I drove myself crazy chasing a tick on my 06 Foreman. 

 

I finally just ignored it and rode it.  Been that way for a long time now.  Hasn't caused any problems yet. LOL

 

https://www.hondaforeman.com/threads/valve-adjustment-now-ticking-is-louder.111418/#post-2823202

 

 

 

i seen your friends  @basfnb had some comments ... lol. 

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The timing chain on a 450 is quite short, it is located behind the front cover alongside the crankshaft. Unlike the long chains on an overhead cam motor chain, a loose chain on a 450 is very, very difficult to hear. More like impossible.... So I am ruling out the chain entirely because I don't believe that a loose chain inside a 450 could be heard by anyone on a video.

 

You've worked on the muffler freebo86.... you likely have disturbed the header pipe joint at the head while R&Ring the muffler and now likely have a leaky copper gasket there. So ya may as well stop chasing ghosts and replace the copper ring gasket and refresh the carb.... those two are likely your only issues.

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I've been following along on this thread.  You are doing things I would NEVER attempt.

 

I'm now emotionally invested in the outcome.  I'M ROOTING FOR YOU.

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3 hours ago, freebo86 said:

 

 

You guys missed the below sentence? Listen to the engine starting at about 1:25minutes. Do you hear then still?

 

From my video post on that page.

 

It sounded like the chain was slapping. I shouldn't be able to hear it that loudly regardless of the idle speed. In fact a loping idle helps identify a loose chain. Again, I can't be sure of anything. I'm just giving my opinion after 37.5 years of professional experience. Hope this helps.

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4 hours ago, _Wilson_™ said:

 

i seen your friends  @basfnb had some comments ... lol. 

 

 

He's a big ole hulk of a dumb-butt. LOL

 

https://www.hondaforeman.com/threads/stripped-oil-filter-bolt.143930/

 

Old Rich450es.  He was kinda like our Shadetree on the HF board.  Walked me through my first engine rebuild.

 

He's living out in Utah now, running a small engine shop, and moved from Honda ATV's to old VW beetles.

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Vw beetles ? hm....  like those little those bugs, had a friend who had one no telling how many times it caught on fire, he drove that bug for years, now he's an airplane mechanic, go figure.... lol,  

 

@basfnb <<<< yeah i guess this confirms it. but i don't think he's ever posted, is he the one that layed on your heated floor one time ? i can't recall all the details .. but i do remember that part. 

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@freebo86, you can check for a worn out cam chain by rotating the crank slowly with a ratchet & socket in the normal direction of rotation. Crank until you see a valve open about halfway then reverse your ratchet and begin to slowly turn the crankshaft backwards. If the open valve begins to move within 2-3 degrees of reverse crank rotation then your cam chain and tensioner are fine. But if you must turn the crank further than 2-3 degrees before the open valve begins to move then the chain is worn out.

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6 hours ago, WonderMonkey said:

I've been following along on this thread.  You are doing things I would NEVER attempt.

 

I'm now emotionally invested in the outcome.  I'M ROOTING FOR YOU.

 

Thanks, appreciate the words of encouragement! Want to invest financially now to help me out? 😝

 

7 hours ago, retro said:

The timing chain on a 450 is quite short, it is located behind the front cover alongside the crankshaft. Unlike the long chains on an overhead cam motor chain, a loose chain on a 450 is very, very difficult to hear. More like impossible.... So I am ruling out the chain entirely because I don't believe that a loose chain inside a 450 could be heard by anyone on a video.

 

You've worked on the muffler freebo86.... you likely have disturbed the header pipe joint at the head while R&Ring the muffler and now likely have a leaky copper gasket there. So ya may as well stop chasing ghosts and replace the copper ring gasket and refresh the carb.... those two are likely your only issues.

 

I did. After that R&R I checked my repair at the time to see if the exhaust system had leaks anywhere by plugging the rear muffler hole with a rag while engine running, the bike started to starve itself and was about to die. So I think we can rule out any sort of exhaust leaks? With a leak, the pressure would just leak out elsewhere and engine would keep running, no?

 

2 hours ago, retro said:

@freebo86, you can check for a worn out cam chain by rotating the crank slowly with a ratchet & socket in the normal direction of rotation. Crank until you see a valve open about halfway then reverse your ratchet and begin to slowly turn the crankshaft backwards. If the open valve begins to move within 2-3 degrees of reverse crank rotation then your cam chain and tensioner are fine. But if you must turn the crank further than 2-3 degrees before the open valve begins to move then the chain is worn out.

 

I can tomorrow. The recoil starter is already pulled. So turn the crank clockwise, watch for valve opening, that is the adjusting end/where the spring is starts moving up towards me. Right? At that point go 2-3 degrees counter clockwise and watch what happens.

 

 

Spent this evening pulling carb and taking it apart. Surprisingly for a 17 year old bike, the unit was very clean inside. There was mud caked on the exterior, that I cleaned off using a toothbrush and gas. Then went to work inside of it. The jets and everything looked good, the slow jet looked like it had something in it. Its all soaking now in some gas overnight and tomorrow I will clean it thoroughly to put back together. I followed along the service manual, checked the diaphragm and it also looked was flawless, no tears and it moved freely.

 

I measured the pilot screw and it was about 2.5 turns out, so almost just a bit less than spec calls for 2-5/8s and it very well could have been 2-5/8s. 

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1 minute ago, Wheeler said:

@freebo86 do u have an air compressor to blow the jets out? Or a good cleaner to soak carb in?

 

Yes sir. Got a compressor and I will do that part as well, also have carb cleaner on hand. 

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8 hours ago, retro said:

The timing chain on a 450 is quite short, it is located behind the front cover alongside the crankshaft. Unlike the long chains on an overhead cam motor chain, a loose chain on a 450 is very, very difficult to hear. More like impossible.... So I am ruling out the chain entirely because I don't believe that a loose chain inside a 450 could be heard by anyone on a video.

 

You've worked on the muffler freebo86.... you likely have disturbed the header pipe joint at the head while R&Ring the muffler and now likely have a leaky copper gasket there. So ya may as well stop chasing ghosts and replace the copper ring gasket and refresh the carb.... those two are likely your only issues.

 

I haven't read through the whole thread yet but I'll quote this one because it's true yet the 450 was good for the spring to break inside the adjuster and you could have an instant on/off chain noise that eventually turned into a constant chain noise. I'm use to pretty much all the motors so in person noises I can usually narrow things down. Videos pick up too much detail and a perfect motor will make noises that are normal, yet seem loud on video. When i get some time I'll try to catch up a little more on this topic and see if i can add in a few ideas.

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11 hours ago, toodeep said:

 

I haven't read through the whole thread yet but I'll quote this one because it's true yet the 450 was good for the spring to break inside the adjuster and you could have an instant on/off chain noise that eventually turned into a constant chain noise. I'm use to pretty much all the motors so in person noises I can usually narrow things down. Videos pick up too much detail and a perfect motor will make noises that are normal, yet seem loud on video. When i get some time I'll try to catch up a little more on this topic and see if i can add in a few ideas.

toodeep, good suggestion! It does seem to come and go a little but the loud metal tin tapping sound would be something else correct?

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