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freebo86

Can’t catch a break. Shift problems

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Well I can’t catch a break with this ATV and I’m on the verge of burning it down. If some of you recall my thread about the starting, carb and engine noise after finally sorting the carb I decided to go out tonight with a buddy to test the machine. 
 

Ran well, and all good idle and then at one point my gear shift was blinking (3 times). I figured no problem, probably just angle sensor.. gave it a few rocks nothing. Pulled out emergency lever, no go. 
 

Anyways got out of the trails, back on the trailer and home it goes. I was able to up shift it to 4th and 5th but that’s it. It’s not down shifting. Electrically or manually.

 

couple of months ago I followed the guide on here, took the shift motor off greased, cleaned and it worked flawlessly. 
 

Of course tonight this happens. Now I’m at a loss again, can’t start the machine as it’s stuck in 5th. Can’t get it down by rocking, manual or electric shift. 
 

What’s the verdict? Something on the shift mechanism is gone and by the sounds of it it’s mechanical.. because otherwise the emergency shifter should work. This a 2004 450ES. 

Edited by freebo86

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Have you adjusted the clutch lately, that might help. If it was shifting manually I'd be able to help a bit more as I have been chasing electrical bugs for the last few months with mine.

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Just now, Jemmons467 said:

Have you adjusted the clutch lately, that might help. If it was shifting manually I'd be able to help a bit more as I have been chasing electrical bugs for the last few months with mine.


No I haven’t adjusted the clutch at all. 
it used to shift manually before i cleaned out my shift motor from the old grease. Tonight the manual doesn’t work anymore either..

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13 minutes ago, freebo86 said:


No I haven’t adjusted the clutch at all. 
it used to shift manually before i cleaned out my shift motor from the old grease. Tonight the manual doesn’t work anymore either..

What year and model do you have? 

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4 minutes ago, Jemmons467 said:

What year and model do you have? 


Good point, I’ll add it to the main post, but it’s a 2004 450ES

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The reduction gear might not be aligned on the spindle shaft. Also make sure you download the service manual they have available on here

Edited by Jemmons467
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Just had  99 Foreman 450ES do the same thing in October

I pulled front clutch cover and found a cracked shift plate

Somewhat common on these and its pretty easy to take care of, if that is the issue

Hope yours is an easy fix as well

 

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It sounds like a mechanical failure to me too. Possibly broken as AKATV described, or possibly the bolt holding the detent plate onto the shift drum have loosened up. Take the shift motor assembly off of the front cover and try to downshift using the emergency tool. If it won't shift manually at that point it's something mechanical. It's not difficult to repair.

shift-linkage.png

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Cheers boys. Thanks for the info. Will be taking the shift motor off and then front cover if needed as well. If it shifts with the shift motor off, what’s failed at that point? The shift motor?
 

Up side, I guess this will give me a chance to check the timing chain and tensioner at the same time if the front cover has to come off. 

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When the shift motor is off hook it to a good 12v battery and see if it shifts, if it doesn't the shift motor is the or part of the problem. There is also a great write up on how to prep an ES system in the forums

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Just now, Jemmons467 said:

When the shift motor is off hook it to a good 12v battery and see if it shifts, if it doesn't the shift motor is the or part of the problem. There is also a great write up on how to prep an ES system in the forums


Yah the shift motor has been serviced, greased and tested not that long ago I know it could still have failed.

 

What I’m curious to know if I remove the shift motor and can manually shift (with the handle) what does that tell me is busted? The shift motor? 
 

because I was able to electronically shift up from 3rd to 5th so it does work.. 

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5 minutes ago, freebo86 said:


Yah the shift motor has been serviced, greased and tested not that long ago I know it could still have failed.

 

What I’m curious to know if I remove the shift motor and can manually shift (with the handle) what does that tell me is busted? The shift motor? 
 

because I was able to electronically shift up from 3rd to 5th so it does work.. 

If it does shift at that point I would say its the reduction gears binding for whatever reason. I dont have a whole lot of experience with these machines except with what I have been through.

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I like to read all the ES threads , not that I have one , just like to learn , I have learned a lot , learned I'm glad I don't have one , LOL 

 

 

All pun aside , I have always heard the shift shaft in an ES is not as heavy duty as in a FM or S , and they do break  , some say that using the emergency shifter  too much or too hard  will  kill the shaft , but I know people who have made permanent foot shifter lever mods on their ES's and it has been a long time now with no problem , there is a guy here in Louisiana that sells foot shifter levers for ES models 

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this wasn't the shift motor that met the wall at a high rate of speed was it ? never mind wrong person...  my bad @freebo86 lol. 

 

let me ask this, it's not china shift motor is it ? 

Edited by _Wilson_™

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Ya already know the shift motor was working, thats how ya got it up to 5th gear. :-)

 

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Pulled the shift motor. The emergency handle moves freely now. I can get it to click up and down but the gear indicator shows - - probably due to the fact the angle sensor is on the bench.
 

Tested 12V at shift motor and the thing spins freely. Tested the angle sensor as per service manual and the resistance is smooth reading. 
 

shouldnt the little gear on the shift motor be able to be turned by hand because it meshes with the gear reductions on the engine side? If that is stiff, well the emergency handle can’t be moved which makes sense?

 

image.jpg

Edited by freebo86

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15 hours ago, freebo86 said:

Ran well, and all good idle and then at one point my gear shift was blinking (3 times). I figured no problem, probably just angle sensor.. gave it a few rocks nothing. Pulled out emergency lever, no go. 

 

im not an es owner, but it stopped just after this, and didn't turn loose till you removed shift motor and then you were able to use the emergency shifter to shift it, i read some place about those flashes, I'll see if i can locate it, @toodeep @jeepwm69 , or @retro would be who i was ask. 

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1 hour ago, retro said:

Ya already know the shift motor was working, thats how ya got it up to 5th gear. 🙂

 


Good point. My head is getting clouded from issues left and right as you can imagine. 
 

Front engine cover will be coming off tonight. We’ll see what I find and check the timing chain at the same time.  

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Were you able to shift it down to neutral & reverse & back up to neutral manually? You'll have to rock the ATV back and forth while manually shifting to get each gear completely engaged.

 

Test that the shift motor runs good in both directions by swapping the two leads from your battery. One of the glued in magnets may have come loose inside the shift motor if the motor doesn't run strong in either direction, its common for them to do that once they get water inside and begin to rust the housing. If the shift motor takes an impact (dropping it, etc.) a magnet may shatter as well, which makes the motor drag, if it runs at all.

 

Also if there was ever water inside the motor, sometimes one of the brushes can get stuck due to rust in a brush holder. If the motor was corrosion-free when ya had it apart then there is probably nothing to worry about.

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2 hours ago, retro said:

Were you able to shift it down to neutral & reverse & back up to neutral manually? You'll have to rock the ATV back and forth while manually shifting to get each gear completely engaged.

 

Test that the shift motor runs good in both directions by swapping the two leads from your battery. One of the glued in magnets may have come loose inside the shift motor if the motor doesn't run strong in either direction, its common for them to do that once they get water inside and begin to rust the housing. If the shift motor takes an impact (dropping it, etc.) a magnet may shatter as well, which makes the motor drag, if it runs at all.

 

Also if there was ever water inside the motor, sometimes one of the brushes can get stuck due to rust in a brush holder. If the motor was corrosion-free when ya had it apart then there is probably nothing to worry about.


I’ll try the shifting into reverse and to reverse and back up manually. I’ll have to remove the shift motor from the mount as it can’t be in there if I try to use the lever. As soon as I install the motor I can’t use the lever.. 

 

Once it’s on there the lever is solid and not moving in any direction. 

Edited by freebo86

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31 minutes ago, freebo86 said:


I’ll try the shifting into reverse and down manually. I’ll have to remove the shift motor from the mount as it can’t be in there if I try to use the lever. As soon as I install the motor I can’t use the lever.. 

 

Once it’s on there the lever is solid and not moving in any direction. 

Something is definitely binding inside the gears.

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7 hours ago, Fishfiles said:

 I know people who have made permanent foot shifter lever mods on their ES's and it has been a long time now with no problem , there is a guy here in Louisiana that sells foot shifter levers for ES models 

 

we need a video or more information on that mod (not me) but i think it would be very helpfull. 

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Take the shift motor assembly off of the front cover and put battery power to it, then swap leads on the shift motor to run it the opposite direction. If the motor runs weakly or feels like the armature inside is dragging while powered in either direction then the shift motor has a problem. But if the motor runs powerfully then ya might have a seizing reduction gear support bearing or one of the support bearings might have been installed crooked at the factory. My prep tutorial mentions those two common issues, bearings are easy to straighten back up.

 

If you can shift through every gear manually while the shift motor is off then there is probably nothing wrong with any of the mechanical shifter parts under the front cover.

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11 minutes ago, retro said:

Take the shift motor assembly off of the front cover and put battery power to it, then swap leads on the shift motor to run it the opposite direction. If the motor runs weakly or feels like the armature inside is dragging while powered in either direction then the shift motor has a problem. But if the motor runs powerfully then ya might have a seizing reduction gear support bearing or one of the support bearings might have been installed crooked at the factory. My prep tutorial mentions those two common issues, bearings are easy to straighten back up.

 

If you can shift through every gear manually while the shift motor is off then there is probably nothing wrong with any of the mechanical shifter parts under the front cover.


I recall when I went through your tutorial on the crooked bearings and even looked at the time and they all looked good. I’ll have to double check. 
 

The shift motor spun in the one direction I tested in very strong when 12V was applied. I’ll try the opposite direction, check the bearings. 
 

To test shifting through all gears I’ll have to pull the motor, shift the lever, install motor see what gear and so forth until I cycle trough then. Unless there is a hidden of know what gear I’m in without having the angle sensors mounted?

Edited by freebo86

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Case closed. Retro, good call on checking the other direction of motor as it wasn’t working. 
 

I pulled the reduction gears, installed it in to use the angle sensor to display gears. Cycled through the gears manually without issues. Up and down and in reverse. 
 

Opened the motor on the armature side and here we are. Magnet inside the case cracked.

 

what’s my options? Is OEM the only way to go? Can the armature house be bought separately?

 

 

image.jpg
image.jpg

Edited by freebo86
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