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dadhustle

'01 350 ES, so many new parts, won't start

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Powersportsnation has a 20% off sale going on now, if they happen to have what you need.  "WEEK20" is the code for the discount.  Have to order 2 or more used parts to use it.

 

I usually just toss an extra solenoid in an order if I need to order X # of parts to get a discount.

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Thanks @retro we have just tested, we don’t see any shifting, up or down.  We held our hand on the shift motor and feel nothing, nor see any change in the lcd panel

 

Below is a pic of the wires jumped, red-black>>white-blue and red-black>>yellow-white.  Correct?

 

 

BD6B7B9B-AD4F-49EA-A486-75486A9DCD8E.jpeg

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1 hour ago, dadhustle said:

Below is a pic of the wires jumped, red-black>>white-blue and red-black>>yellow-white.  Correct?

 

You have probably tested correctly but you reported the wire colors incorrectly. To recap: Unplug the green 10p connector. Turn the ignition switch on. Inside the main wiring harness half of the green connector jumper between the Black/Red (+) to White/Blue contacts (-) then jumper between the Black/Red (+) to White/Yellow (-) contacts.

 

You previously mentioned that the voltage measured between the Black/Red contact and ground was only 4 volts, when measured inside the main harness 10p connector. The spec calls for 4.7 volts DC minimum to 5.3 volts DC maximum. Try this: connect a battery charger to the battery then measure for that voltage again. Is voltage now between 4.7 & 5.3 volts? If not report back with the voltage that was measured.

 

But If so, turn the ignition off, disconnect the angle sensor 3p connector, turn the ignition on and measure voltage between the Black/Red (+) and Blue/Green (-) wire contacts inside that harness connector. Do you measure between 4.7 & 5.3 volts there while the battery charger is charging the battery?

 

angle-sensor-voltage.png

 

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Also please measure the resistance of the Angle sensor as follows, while the ignition is turned off. What does it measure?

 

angle-sensor-resistance.png

 

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Good Day All,

 

Okay, we have tested as guided above; here's what we know:

 

*All tests were performed w/the battery connected to a charger

 

When re-testing continuity in the e-shift buttons (at the ECU end), we received:

 White/Blue >> Black/Red (UP)= 2.98-4.14

 White/Yellow>>Black/Red (Down)= 3.14-4.25

 *tested several times and received in this range

 

When re-testing continuity at the shift assembly end, both tests returned in range of 8.00

 

When testing the shift angle sensor (at the connector end), voltage ranged from 4-5 *several tests)

 

When testing the shift angle sensor (at the ECU end), voltage was also in range of 5

 

I believe I followed instructions, but I'm so lost now.

 

*I did remove the ECU and noticed some rust on one of the pins on the 5 connector harness.  I tried to clean that w/some blaster and wire brush, but it didn't net anything.

 

Please share your thoughts and thanks again.

 

 

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6 hours ago, dadhustle said:

When re-testing continuity in the e-shift buttons (at the ECU end), we received:

 White/Blue >> Black/Red (UP)= 2.98-4.14

 White/Yellow>>Black/Red (Down)= 3.14-4.25

 *tested several times and received in this range

 

Was this volts DC measured with the key on? Or was it Ohms resistance (Continuity) measured with the key off? Please explain....

 

6 hours ago, dadhustle said:

When re-testing continuity at the shift assembly end, both tests returned in range of 8.00

 

8 Ohms resistance while depressing the shift switches, measured while the switches assembly were unplugged from the main harness?

 

6 hours ago, dadhustle said:

When testing the shift angle sensor (at the connector end), voltage ranged from 4-5 *several tests)

 

When testing the shift angle sensor (at the ECU end), voltage was also in range of 5

 

I am confused here as well. Where/how are you measuring voltage when you say "at the ECU end"? This test (unplug the angle sensor and measure voltage inside the angle sensor main harness connector with the key on) is all that is required:

 

angle-sensor-voltage.png

 

When you provide measurements please include whether those numbers are volts DC, or Ohms resistance?

 

Did you forget to include this test....?  With the ignition key off, the angle sensor plugged in, unplug the ECU and measure resistance through the angle sensor like this and report back:

 

angle-sensor-resistance.png

 

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Hi there, providing a more clear explanation: 

 

Hope the following proves helpful and thanks for your persistence.

  On 5/11/2021 at 9:13 AM, dadhustle said:

When re-testing continuity in the e-shift buttons (at the ECU end), we received:

 White/Blue >> Black/Red (UP)= 2.98-4.14

 White/Yellow>>Black/Red (Down)= 3.14-4.25

 *tested several times and received in this range

 

 

Was this volts DC measured with the key on? Or was it Ohms resistance (Continuity) measured with the key off? Please explain....

 

DH: I've performed both ways; key on and off.  Measurements as follows:

  • White/Blue>> BlackRed

VDC = 0

Key Off Continuity = >4 <6

Key On Continuity = >3 <4

  • White/Yellow>>Black/Red

VDC = 0

Key Off Continuity = >3 <4

Key On Continuity = >3 <4

*Each continuity test performed several times, readings ranged in above

 

  On 5/11/2021 at 9:13 AM, dadhustle said:

When re-testing continuity at the shift assembly end, both tests returned in range of 8.00

 

8 Ohms resistance while depressing the shift switches, measured while the switches assembly were unplugged from the main harness?

 

DH: =No, this was done at end of shift harness, unplugged from main -point I guess 🙂

 

  On 5/11/2021 at 9:13 AM, dadhustle said:

When testing the shift angle sensor (at the connector end), voltage ranged from 4-5 *several tests)

 

When testing the shift angle sensor (at the ECU end), voltage was also in range of 5

 

I am confused here as well. Where/how are you measuring voltage when you say "at the ECU end"? This test (unplug the angle sensor and measure voltage inside the angle sensor main harness connector with the key on) is all that is required:

 

DH: tested again, 4VDC

 

angle-sensor-voltage.png

 

When you provide measurements please include whether those numbers are volts DC, or Ohms resistance?

 

DH: Roger

 

Did you forget to include this test....?  With the ignition key off, the angle sensor plugged in, unplug the ECU and measure resistance through the angle sensor like this and report back:

 

DH: Key off continuity = 5.09

 

angle-sensor-resistance.png

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Hi dadhustle,

 

I am confused as all get out.... I suspect that we may have our wires crossed because your numbers aren't making any sense. But I got some good news... tomorrow I am tearing my '00 Rancher down for it's routine spring maintenance, so while the front fender is off I will take some pictures of what we need you to test. Stay tuned...

and thanks for your patience!

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this makes no since in the way i was taught..  E = I x R...,, an continuity, should read, as testing a wire, from end to end. most to see, if its connected from one end to another..  i just cant see how ya would get a reading. either its on or off.. has nothing to do with resistance, ohms. either ya got an open, or not..

R= Ohms, I=amps, E=volts.. then after that comes power. Watts., as, I squared x R = Watts..  

i am older, but i still remember this. i still got the chart, somewhere. but it can be easily looked up on line..

Edited by LedFTed
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45 minutes ago, LedFTed said:

i am older, but i still remember this. i still got the chart, somewhere. but it can be easily looked up on line..

 

Yup, Ohms law. The round rotating charts are pretty handy. 🙂

 

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Thank you, I’ll try to explain what I did:

 

testing the shift switches:

multimeter set to ohms with audible continuity (20k), tested by touching probes

Removed gray ecu harness, connected multimeter probes as such:

Black probe to red/black wire

Red probe to blue/white and then yellow/white.

 

Depending upon red probe, toggle shift switch, gathered the reading.

 

For the shift sensor voltage, unplugged from shift sensor, with ecu harness connected and key on, multimeter set to dcv 1000, returned a reading of 4.

 

For the resistance of the shift sensor, ecu harness disconnected, shift sensor plug connected to the shift sensor and multimeter set to ohm 20k, I checked the green/blue and red/black... green/blue is 4th down from opposite row of red/black?  I would call it left looking down on the wires.. reading is 5.09.

 

I hope this helps, welcome any guidance.

 

 

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Ok, according to your measurements the angle sensor resistance is within range of the spec and so the angle sensor should allow the ECU to initiate shifts.

 

However, the voltage supplying the shift switches and the angle sensor (Black/Red wire) is low. You measured 4 volts DC while the minimum spec is 4.7 VDC. You also tried to jumper between the shift control wires (bypassing the shift switches) and that test failed to initiate a shift. This indicates that the Shift ECU is probably bad.

 

The shift switches are probably bad too, since you were measuring 8 ohms resistance through each of them while depressing the Up & Down buttons.

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11 hours ago, retro said:

Ok, according to your measurements the angle sensor resistance is within range of the spec and so the angle sensor should allow the ECU to initiate shifts.

 

However, the voltage supplying the shift switches and the angle sensor (Black/Red wire) is low. You measured 4 volts DC while the minimum spec is 4.7 VDC. You also tried to jumper between the shift control wires (bypassing the shift switches) and that test failed to initiate a shift. This indicates that the Shift ECU is probably bad.

 

The shift switches are probably bad too, since you were measuring 8 ohms resistance through each of them while depressing the Up & Down buttons.

Thank you @retro!!  -appreciate your help through all this!  -by shift ECU, you mean the 22pin/gray connection ECU under the right rear fender?  -you advised the Amazon shift switches were probably bad in a previous post; we'll get them replaced.

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40 minutes ago, dadhustle said:

-by shift ECU, you mean the 22pin/gray connection ECU under the right rear fender?

 

Yes, by now you should already have had that ECU out in your hands many times and have been testing wires between that connector & the angle sensor & shift switches!

 

Let's recap what is required of the ES system though, because a shift ECU is a very expensive part! And I am very uncomfortable when advising members to buy expensive parts! So let's double check everything, it only takes a few extra minutes. Please read this thread again from the beginning up to this point?

 

Looking back you'll see we began diagnosis by verifying power supply and grounds before we did anything else. Check all three of your grounds again, the black negative battery cable bolts down to the rear motor cover above the recoil starter, then that same black cable continues to where it bolts down to the right-rear of the frame near the shift ECU. The wiring harness ground is bolted down to the frame near the ignition CDI, on the right-front side of the frame. Make sure that all three of those grounds are clean and tight.

 

ES Requirements:

  • Battery must be fully charged and in good condition
  • The 30 amp "Main" fuse, the 30 amp "Motor" fuse and the "Ignition" fuses must be functional
  • The Neutral light must be on while the transmission is in neutral while the ignition switch is turned on
  • The reverse gear lockout cable & lever must be attached and be functional (located lower-center area of the rear motor cover)
  • The reverse switch wire (located on the left-rear of the rear motor cover) must be plugged in
  • The vehicle speed sensor must be plugged in
  • While at rest in neutral, the Angle sensor resistance must measure between 4k ohms and 6k ohms for shifts to initiate
  • The shift motor must be functional and you must be able to shift the gears manually.
  • Supply voltage for the Angle sensor & the handlebar Shift switches must measure between 4.7-5.3 volts
  • The handlebar shift switches must be functional

We learned that the supply voltage (Black/Red wire from shift ECU) for the angle sensor and shift switches measures low, at only 4 volts DC. You measured again while the battery was connected to a battery charger to insure that low battery voltage was not the reason why the ECU supplies only 4 volts.

 

We learned that the handlebar shift switches are not functional because resistance through each UP/Down switch measures high at 8 ohms. So.... you bypassed those shift switches by jumpering between the Black/Red wire to the Blue/White wire and then between the Black/Red to the Yellow/White inside the wiring harness shift switches connector, attempting to initiate a shift. That test failed, presumably because the supply voltage measures below specification, at only 4 volts DC.

 

So, since the ECU will supply no more than 4 volts to the angle sensor and the shift switches, we must conclude that the ECU have failed.

 

Double check everything though! Because it will be your wallet, not mine, that will pay for the repair part that we have determined that your Rancher needs. If you have any questions or concerns, please continue to ask them? 🙂

 

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7 hours ago, retro said:

 

Yes, by now you should already have had that ECU out in your hands many times and have been testing wires between that connector & the angle sensor & shift switches!

 

Let's recap what is required of the ES system though, because a shift ECU is a very expensive part! And I am very uncomfortable when advising members to buy expensive parts! So let's double check everything, it only takes a few extra minutes. Please read this thread again from the beginning up to this point?

 

Looking back you'll see we began diagnosis by verifying power supply and grounds before we did anything else. Check all three of your grounds again, the black negative battery cable bolts down to the rear motor cover above the recoil starter, then that same black cable continues to where it bolts down to the right-rear of the frame near the shift ECU. The wiring harness ground is bolted down to the frame near the ignition CDI, on the right-front side of the frame. Make sure that all three of those grounds are clean and tight.

DH: Grounds look good; one by the ECU was a bit dirty, but cleaned up -no change

 

7 hours ago, retro said:

ES Requirements:

  • Battery must be fully charged and in good condition
  • The 30 amp "Main" fuse, the 30 amp "Motor" fuse and the "Ignition" fuses must be functional
  • The Neutral light must be on while the transmission is in neutral while the ignition switch is turned on
  • The reverse gear lockout cable & lever must be attached and be functional (located lower-center area of the rear motor cover)
  • The reverse switch wire (located on the left-rear of the rear motor cover) must be plugged in
  • The vehicle speed sensor must be plugged in
  • While at rest in neutral, the Angle sensor resistance must measure between 4k ohms and 6k ohms for shifts to initiate
  • The shift motor must be functional and you must be able to shift the gears manually.
  • Supply voltage for the Angle sensor & the handlebar Shift switches must measure between 4.7-5.3 volts
  • The handlebar shift switches must be functional

DH: 

Battery -check

Fuses -check

Neutral light -we don't have one -we have a R light and N on the digital panel -stays in N on the digital panel -is that the same?

Reverse gear lockout cable and level  -I searched the manual over for this.  I'm not sure I've found it, but its the cable that sit on bottom center of rear cover, sits in a guided harness, a collar of sorts on the cable -I'm near positive its for the reverse (attaches to circled in picture below?)

image.png

Vehicle speed sensor -check

Angle Sensor resistance -check, holding at 5+/-

Shift motor functional -check, verified several times w/12v direct to motor

Supply voltage -fail, holding steady at 4+/- here

Handlebar switches -TBD, but not looking good

 

7 hours ago, retro said:

We learned that the supply voltage (Black/Red wire from shift ECU) for the angle sensor and shift switches measures low, at only 4 volts DC. You measured again while the battery was connected to a battery charger to insure that low battery voltage was not the reason why the ECU supplies only 4 volts.

 

We learned that the handlebar shift switches are not functional because resistance through each UP/Down switch measures high at 8 ohms. So.... you bypassed those shift switches by jumpering between the Black/Red wire to the Blue/White wire and then between the Black/Red to the Yellow/White inside the wiring harness shift switches connector, attempting to initiate a shift. That test failed, presumably because the supply voltage measures below specification, at only 4 volts DC.

 

So, since the ECU will supply no more than 4 volts to the angle sensor and the shift switches, we must conclude that the ECU have failed.

 

Double check everything though! Because it will be your wallet, not mine, that will pay for the repair part that we have determined that your Rancher needs. If you have any questions or concerns, please continue to ask them? 🙂

 


What do you think?  ECU?  -honestly, my son is growing discouraged, so its push over the hump here or sell it off 😞 

 

*Something occurred to me; I bought this lower motor half used --too long a story to go into for now.  The guy that sold it to me (whom I'm trying to reach for deeper understanding) said something about jumping a yellow wire "you'll never read it in the manual" he said ...this was regarding ES.  I dunno if this helps, but it struck me today.

 

 

Thanks @retro,

RD

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1 hour ago, dadhustle said:

Neutral light -we don't have one -we have a R light and N on the digital panel -stays in N on the digital panel -is that the same?

 

The green "N" light is the Neutral indicator light. It should be lit when the trans is in neutral and go out whenever the trans is shifted to a different gear. The red "R" light is the Reverse indicator light. It should light up only when the trans is shifted into Reverse.

 

1 hour ago, dadhustle said:

Reverse gear lockout cable and lever  -I searched the manual over for this.  I'm not sure I've found it, but its the cable that sit on bottom center of rear cover, sits in a guided harness, a collar of sorts on the cable -I'm near positive its for the reverse (attaches to circled in picture below?)

 

Yes that is correct. Just to the left of the Reverse lockout lever is the Reverse switch. Make sure that wire is plugged in. See the Red arrow in your image below.

 

image.png

 

1 hour ago, dadhustle said:

Angle Sensor resistance -check, holding at 5+/-

 

Angle sensor resistance should measure between 4k & 6k ohms (4000 - 6000 ohms). If yours measures only 5 ohms then it is no good.

 

1 hour ago, dadhustle said:

What do you think?  ECU?  -honestly, my son is growing discouraged, so its push over the hump here or sell it off 😞 

 

Well, I am not absolutely sure that the ECU is bad. Our only evidence to make that determination is the 4 volts supply for the angle sensor & shift switches. I have never seen a shift ECU measure low at only 4 volts supply.... they are either dead, or they produce 5 volts. So I'd rather keep looking than blow a wad of cash on it at this point. Patience rewards the tinkerer....

 

1 hour ago, dadhustle said:

*Something occurred to me; I bought this lower motor half used --too long a story to go into for now.  The guy that sold it to me (whom I'm trying to reach for deeper understanding) said something about jumping a yellow wire "you'll never read it in the manual" he said ...this was regarding ES.  I dunno if this helps, but it struck me today.

 

The only Yellow wires on the bike are the three alternator wires that connect to the regulator rectifier, which converts AC to DC to recharge the battery. If you can learn more from the previous owner, we'll be happy to listen.

 

In the meantime ya may as well find a used handlebar switches assembly, you'll need that OEM part for sure. And ya might get lucky... the switches assembly might fix it.

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I can't remember if I have asked you to shift manually to verify that the gear indicator works, or not? If not, rock the ATV forward and backward while you shift up through the gears. When you begin in Neutral with the key turned on, make sure the neutral light is lit. Then shift up to 1st while rocking the ATV. The LCD Display meter should indicate 1st gear and the neutral light should be dark. Continue shifting up while rocking the bike until you reach 5th gear. Each gear change should display on the LCD display meter. Then shift back down through the gears until you reach neutral again. Punch the reverse button on the left handlebar brake lever, pull the brake lever & reverse lockout back and then shift the trans to Reverse. The red reverse light should light up and the LCD display meter should display "R".

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Thanks, I will definitely look into oem switches and shift sensor before the ecu.

 

I want to show you our dash, not to belabor the point, I just want to know if I should have something else.  As you can see, we don’t have a green light.. could something else be happening here?

 

pic immediately after turning on the key

 

2F77CD0D-E024-477A-82D8-565BE48947C7.jpeg
pic after temp light goes out?  Hard to see, but we have a neutral reading on the display 

BFB8732A-00FE-4056-A1C9-AC26C0C08034.jpeg

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The green Neutral light indicator is centered at the top of the display under the tape. Like this one:

 

meter.png

 

Take that tape off and see if the neutral light works while the trans is in neutral.

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10 minutes ago, retro said:

The green Neutral light indicator is centered at the top of the display under the tape. Like this one:

 

meter.png

 

Take that tape off and see if the neutral light works while the trans is in neutral.

Oh good Lord.. so it is.. well this will give everyone a laugh... having a drink and calling it a night. 
 

Oh and light is all lit up!  I’ll get on the switches AND shift sensor?

Edited by dadhustle
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See ya after your siesta!

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So now that the tape is off the N light , does it stay lit all the time --- 

 

maybe the PO has the wire from the neutral switch grounded cause they had a problem ------ or maybe a gear reduction was installed , on both my 300s and 450s with gear reduction ,  the light stays on all the time and they will start in gear 

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Yep.

 

I'm guessing 01 350, rear of the shift drum likely broke off, and the previous owner rigged it to keep the neutral light on all the time.

 

I thought only the 00 350's had the weak shift drum though, so I could be wrong.

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You know, I thought about that tape all day!  I just checked though, with manual shift, the light goes out, so I think we’re good there?

 

The previous motor owner got back to me, say yellow wire was about ignition, but not shifting.

 

He said, make sure you preload the shift sensor.  Not knowing what all that was, I started googling.. not finding my year, but am seeing something about hold both shift switches as you turn on..... to reset the ecu...   make any sense?

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Ooooohyyy Gosh, it worked!

 

key off>> hold up/down button>> key on, let go soon as it comes on>> heard a shift below >> hold throttle open>> let go off throttle.

 

display did not go back to N, but pushing switches, she is shifting!!!!!

 

Thank you Lord and thank you all here!

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