Jump to content
JayDee

2000 Honda Foreman 450ES no start

Recommended Posts

 

my only concern..ok..maybe more than one !..lol. pieces from that piston had to go in lower engine, will not end well !. second: anytime you tear an engine down like you did ?, this is when you should always replace the cam chain, and inspect the oil pump. last but not least, just because this atv shows low hours/miles ?, DOES NOT TELL YOU HOW IT WAS TREATED IN THOSE HOURS/MILES !!!.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
10 hours ago, shadetree said:

my only concern..ok..maybe more than one !..lol. pieces from that piston had to go in lower engine, will not end well !. second: anytime you tear an engine down like you did ?, this is when you should always replace the cam chain, and inspect the oil pump. last but not least, just because this atv shows low hours/miles ?, DOES NOT TELL YOU HOW IT WAS TREATED IN THOSE HOURS/MILES !!!.

 

Funny that you should mention that... I did the first start break in and let it cool off. Everything looked and sounded good. Changed the oil and put a few miles on it today. Firm shifts and all kinds of power. HOWEVER, after getting warmed up, I noticed a clanking sound from the top end. It is RPM dependent and is only present above 50% throttle (which I did not exceed during initial break in). I double checked my valve lash and it is perfect. After some reading I found others that had encountered this issue after a top end rebuild and even a few that had replaced the timing chain without solving it.

Given the nature and location of the sound, I took the cylinder head back off to investigate. Piston and cylinder still look great (I checked the rod before I even ordered a piston kit to see if it was worth rebuilding), valves and guides looked fine. Though the exhaust valve has a little more play in the guide than I would like, it is comparable to the other Foreman 450S with over 15k miles that I had apart last year. That ATV runs like a swiss watch! Anyway, I noticed inside the intake port was either a casting line or a crack? Given how well it runs, I can't imagine that is the issue, but I thought I would ask before taking it to the machine shop. 

 

 

0524211552a.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 

I wish I would have got some video of the sound before I disassembled the machine again, but this video I found is very similar to what mine is like:
 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
2 hours ago, JayDee said:

 

Funny that you should mention that... I did the first start break in and let it cool off. Everything looked and sounded good. Changed the oil and put a few miles on it today. Firm shifts and all kinds of power. HOWEVER, after getting warmed up, I noticed a clanking sound from the top end. It is RPM dependent and is only present above 50% throttle (which I did not exceed during initial break in). I double checked my valve lash and it is perfect. After some reading I found others that had encountered this issue after a top end rebuild and even a few that had replaced the timing chain without solving it.

Given the nature and location of the sound, I took the cylinder head back off to investigate. Piston and cylinder still look great (I checked the rod before I even ordered a piston kit to see if it was worth rebuilding), valves and guides looked fine. Though the exhaust valve has a little more play in the guide than I would like, it is comparable to the other Foreman 450S with over 15k miles that I had apart last year. That ATV runs like a swiss watch! Anyway, I noticed inside the intake port was either a casting line or a crack? Given how well it runs, I can't imagine that is the issue, but I thought I would ask before taking it to the machine shop. 

 

 

0524211552a.jpg

2 hours ago, JayDee said:

 

Funny that you should mention that... I did the first start break in and let it cool off. Everything looked and sounded good. Changed the oil and put a few miles on it today. Firm shifts and all kinds of power. HOWEVER, after getting warmed up, I noticed a clanking sound from the top end. It is RPM dependent and is only present above 50% throttle (which I did not exceed during initial break in). I double checked my valve lash and it is perfect. After some reading I found others that had encountered this issue after a top end rebuild and even a few that had replaced the timing chain without solving it.

Given the nature and location of the sound, I took the cylinder head back off to investigate. Piston and cylinder still look great (I checked the rod before I even ordered a piston kit to see if it was worth rebuilding), valves and guides looked fine. Though the exhaust valve has a little more play in the guide than I would like, it is comparable to the other Foreman 450S with over 15k miles that I had apart last year. That ATV runs like a swiss watch! Anyway, I noticed inside the intake port was either a casting line or a crack? Given how well it runs, I can't imagine that is the issue, but I thought I would ask before taking it to the machine shop. 

 

 

0524211552a.jpg

almost looks like a break inside there ?, i have never seen one break like this on any 450 i've rebuilt. are you 100% sure when you set the valves, you set them on compression stroke, and not the exhaust stroke ?. has the cam chain been replaced, and installed in time ?, everything MUST be installed, and timed !. if the top end was replaced, and they did not get the cam chain timed right ?, it will make this sound. only other time i've heard this sound was when i rebuilt a trx350fm rancher, found out the head had defective valve seats pressed into the head, they would work their way out once warmed up, and sit there and slap the valve seat and bottom side of the valve, but again, this was on a trx350fm rancher. you say you checked the rod, please explain how you did this to see if it was good ?, i do know they have bad rods in them, every trx450 i rebuilt had a bad rod either at the bottom at crank ?, or at the wrist pin end ?. was the oil pump inspected for the shaft end to idle crank gear slots, the oil pump is driven off this gear, and i have seen a few of them sheer the shaft off the oil pump. edit: i have no idea why my post quoted you twice ??..lol. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
30 minutes ago, shadetree said:

almost looks like a break inside there ?, i have never seen one break like this on any 450 i've rebuilt. are you 100% sure when you set the valves, you set them on compression stroke, and not the exhaust stroke ?. has the cam chain been replaced, and installed in time ?, everything MUST be installed, and timed !. if the top end was replaced, and they did not get the cam chain timed right ?, it will make this sound. only other time i've heard this sound was when i rebuilt a trx350fm rancher, found out the head had defective valve seats pressed into the head, they would work their way out once warmed up, and sit there and slap the valve seat and bottom side of the valve, but again, this was on a trx350fm rancher. you say you checked the rod, please explain how you did this to see if it was good ?, i do know they have bad rods in them, every trx450 i rebuilt had a bad rod either at the bottom at crank ?, or at the wrist pin end ?. was the oil pump inspected for the shaft end to idle crank gear slots, the oil pump is driven off this gear, and i have seen a few of them sheer the shaft off the oil pump.


That's what I was wondering, the line continuing all the way around to the outside of the head is what threw me off. And yes, the valves were set .006 on the compression stroke, this isn't my first rodeo. I never touched the cam chain, I didn't see a reason to dig into the front cover as the lifters are pushrod driven. There also aren't any signs that this engine has ever been apart, but of course I bought it as a non-runner. Your experience with that Rancher is what others had mentioned, which is why I pulled the head again to check. But, neither seat nor guide appear to be out of place.

I should clarify something, given your responses you seem to be under the impression that the engine was pulled and the case was split for thorough examination. That isn't the case, this was simple cleaning with a piston/cylinder kit assembled in frame. As for the rods, I've worked on several of these machines over the years and almost all of them were ranch rigs that were beat on every single day. One was even ran out of oil twice, but still ran like a sewing machine even with 18k miles. Not once have I seen a bad rod. Generally, you can check for end play with a dial indicator while rocking the crank, which is what I did for the bottom end. If it was shot, I wasn't going to invest anymore time into this engine. Now, as I had to practically drive the wrist pin on, safe to say that isn't a problem either. The machine has great oil pressure, so I once again didn't see a reason to dig that deep. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
36 minutes ago, JayDee said:


That's what I was wondering, the line continuing all the way around to the outside of the head is what threw me off. And yes, the valves were set .006 on the compression stroke, this isn't my first rodeo. I never touched the cam chain, I didn't see a reason to dig into the front cover as the lifters are pushrod driven. There also aren't any signs that this engine has ever been apart, but of course I bought it as a non-runner. Your experience with that Rancher is what others had mentioned, which is why I pulled the head again to check. But, neither seat nor guide appear to be out of place.

I should clarify something, given your responses you seem to be under the impression that the engine was pulled and the case was split for thorough examination. That isn't the case, this was simple cleaning with a piston/cylinder kit assembled in frame. As for the rods, I've worked on several of these machines over the years and almost all of them were ranch rigs that were beat on every single day. One was even ran out of oil twice, but still ran like a sewing machine even with 18k miles. Not once have I seen a bad rod. Generally, you can check for end play with a dial indicator while rocking the crank, which is what I did for the bottom end. If it was shot, I wasn't going to invest anymore time into this engine. Now, as I had to practically drive the wrist pin on, safe to say that isn't a problem either. The machine has great oil pressure, so I once again didn't see a reason to dig that deep. 

one thing stands out here, at no time should you have to '' drive '' the wrist pin into the top of the rod, then again, i don't know what you are calling '' drive in '' ?. yes these are push rod engines, but the valves must be timed from the cam lobes, and this means the cam chain must be tight and correctly timed. i have rebuilt maybe 6 or 7 of these engine models, and to this day, i have never had an issue with knocking noises. i highly doubt that valve picture is a problem, very well looks like a casting flaw.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 

oh, and you can not SEE the valve seat problem, it only effects the noise once when warmed up, then the seat works lose out of the head that is pressed down into from the factory. once warmed up ?, the seat pops out, sits under the valve '' slapping '' is what i call it. once it cools back down, the seat remains in the head, then rinse and repeat.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 

i do hope you get to the bottom of this. when ever i take on a project ?, i don't take short cuts, or the PO's word for anything. i break that engine all the way down, completely go through it, i try my best to leave no stone unturned, all gaskets, cam chain, rod, cylinder , piston kit, oil seals, inspect the valves, everything, this way, when i put it back together, i will know it was done right, but we all do make mistakes...even me !..lol.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
 

I'd check that valve seat.  I've seen that pop up a few times on the boards with similar symptoms.

 

Also, on that wrist pin, I had a 350 Rancher that was similar, pin was a bit stiff going in.  Turned out the inner end of the rod was galled a bit, making the wrist pin hard to go in.  The problem is, once I started running it, that galling worn quickly, turning into play between the small end of the rod and the piston pin.  End result?  New rod required. 

 

Almost every Honda I've worked on has required a new rod.  Only one had up/down play on the bottom of the rod, but the rest all had the top end of the rod worn just enough to cause problems.

 

Now I pretty much just rebuild the crank every time.  Costs me $250ish to have a crank rebuilt, I know it's right, and pulling and re-tearing down engines sucks.  My time's worth more than that.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...