2001 Honda Foreman 450 ES, shifting problems

[retro 4,048]

I would charge the battery up a bit since 12.4 volts is a bit low.

 

Lets try swapping the Angle sensor from the 2000 onto the 2001? With everything plugged in, the 2000 ECM plugged in, key on, see if it shifts.

[Bossdaddy 209]

Will do, going to take a little while, got to move a bunch of stuff to get started on that. I got 4 machines in shop, bought another one, running out of room.

[Bossdaddy 209]

I'm back with another twist, I put the 2000 angle sensor on the 2001 and tried it with both ECMs got nothing, so just trying to be through I put the 2001 angle sensor on the 2000 and it works fine. He's the twist it also worked when I used the 2001 ECM. Shifted perfect.

[Fishfiles 20,145]

Maybe your problem is in the wiring harness , seems you changed everything else ---

 

I actually know a spot of the 450 harness that gets damaged , have a pic of it some where , I have had 7 - 450s so far , 5 became  parts bikes , 2 of the 5 are ES models , took them apart and found a spot that rubs thru , remember telling SamUk about it , on the right hand side of the frame the harness goes from the top side of the frame to the bottom side of the frame , right where it turns under the frame is where I found damaged wires --- I have no clue what those wires controlled as I was not trying to fix the bike , just part them out  , but they were rub all the way thru and probably why it became a parts bike for the Previous Owner ---if not there , maybe some where else along the way wires could be damaged , sometimes the wires corrode inside the insulation and you can't see it , but when you pull on the wire the coating will stretch out , only way to find a wire problem like that is to take all the harness covering off 

 

As much time as you have put into this project and from my experience riding along with ES bikes , the ES problems will return in some form in the future , I would do the es shift  by-pass harness , and  use the atv some , then work on the OEM system at a later time if you really want it back stock 

[Bossdaddy 209]

Thanks Fishfiles for the input, I have looked the harness over the best I can many times but that don't mean crap it could be where I can't see. As long as these guys will try to find the problem I'll hang with them when they scream uncle then I may have to go a different way, Thanks

[retro 4,048]

54 minutes ago, Bossdaddy said:

I'm back with another twist, I put the 2000 angle sensor on the 2001 and tried it with both ECMs got nothing, so just trying to be through I put the 2001 angle sensor on the 2000 and it works fine. He's the twist it also worked when I used the 2001 ECM. Shifted perfect.

 

WOW! Man my brain is overheated now. I gotta study some more, but I feel like @Fishfiles may be onto something concerning the wiring harness. We tested every wire inside the harnesses along with each component under test, and every wire tested good, but the harness could still be bad somewhere allowing a circuit to be weak under a current load.

 

I am not a fan of the ES bypass kit... I'd rather that we fix it right. The OEM Honda ES system can be prepped to be made very reliable once we discover the fault.

[retro 4,048]

So I hope that my brain have recovered and thinking straight now...? But it sounds to me like the problem must be in the wiring harness between the ECM and the Angle sensor? Make sense?

[Bossdaddy 209]

I don't know, I do know we tested that angle sensor and it's wiring forward and backward and established it was good at the time. Then on the last test it sure looks like the wiring on the 2001 may have a problem in that area. I'll go look it over again real good while y'all think.

[retro 4,048]

Thanks for the sanity check Bossdaddy! 🙃

 

I am looking at my spare wiring harness, be back in a bit.

[retro 4,048]

Ok, here is a pic of the wiring harness between the Angle Sensor connector and the 16p ECM connector. Rather than take the entire harness apart, lets try to find a weakened or broken Black/Red, Yellow/Blue and/or Blue/Green wire in the areas where the harness is taped up and where those wires might be subjected to bending & pulling stresses the most. I have drawn a red line along the route that those wires take through the harness and the red line points at each joint or taped area:

 

 

So start at one end and remove tape to look for a broken or rubbed through wire. Check the wires where they enter each of the two connectors too. The following pics show where the harness locations are where those wires are the most likely to be compromised.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bossdaddy 209]

I have checked all of the wires and connections while I was waiting for your instructions except the big connection where about 5 or 6 come together, heading out to shop now to get that one.

[Bossdaddy 209]

Once I removed the gas tank again I realized I had been into that junction before and had cut a lot of the tape back and had inspected it before but went farther on out each line that I could and everything looked new no wear on outer tape looked good.

[Bossdaddy 209]

Guys I have got to shut down, going out of town will be back Saturday, again I appreciate all the help. Go on and send me any test you think we can do and I'll start back Saturday.

[retro 4,048]

Have a good evening Bossdaddy, see ya on Saturday.

 

EDIT: Do not perform this undocumented ECM initialization procedure yet Bossdaddy. Jump to the ignition switch bypass tests below.

 

OK, the wiring harnesses are probably good, but.... I am not certain about that.

 

6 hours ago, Bossdaddy said:

I put the 2001 angle sensor on the 2000 and it works fine. He's the twist it also worked when I used the 2001 ECM. Shifted perfect.

 

^^^^ This does not compute.^^^ I expect the wiring is fine, as we have tested every circuit thoroughly. Bear with me here.... I'm gonna try to explain reasons for an idea that another member shared with us a while back, that fixed his ES.

 

We discovered that the 2001 ECM was not sending voltage to the main relay coil through the Orange/Black wire to activate the relay, so we determined that the 2001 ECM was bad. But now it appears as though we were wrong because the 2001 ECM works fine when plugged into the 2000, but only when the 2001 Angle sensor is plugged in as well !!!??? The 2001 ECM will not work on the 2000 while the 2000 Angle sensor is plugged in !?!? But the 2000 ECM works on the 2000 450 with either one those two Angle sensors plugged in....That doesn't make any sense!

 

So lets try running an initialization function that may exist in the 2001 ECM, although this procedure is undocumented by Honda on 2001 450s?

 

With the display meter that you sent off for repair plugged in, key off, transmission in Neutral, every ES component that was original on the 2001 450 plugged in.

 

• Depress both the "UP" and "DOWN" shift buttons on the handlebar and hold them both down. Turn the key on, then as the display begins to light up immediately release both shift buttons. If the display meter shows "---" on the gear indicator portion of the display, immediately depress each shift button in the following order: UP, DOWN, UP. Turn the key off then back on and see if it shifts.
• But if the display meter shows "N" on the gear indicator portion of the display as soon as you release both shift buttons, turn the key off. Then turn the key on and see if it shifts.

[retro 4,048]

Feel free to jump in here Mel. Honestly I am a bit confused why the 2001 ECM works in the 2000, but only while the 2001 Angle sensor is plugged in too.

 

I gotta know the answer before I die, just gotta! 🙂

 

[Melatv 788]

Hi Retro: We didn't have Bossdaddy jumper the Key switch -- all 4 wires -- I had to replace Key switches on two TRX420's do to high resistance -- they are poorly built key switches. Haven't left anyone in the woods -- always got them home 🙂

[retro 4,048]

You may be onto it Mel. I was thinking earlier today that it must be a power supply problem, so I had the wiring diagram up on my laptop and was looking at testing the ignition switch. But then I got confused by events that followed and I forgot about the switch. I think we ought to...

[retro 4,048]

When I asked if the headlights work or not  I was preparing to test the ignition switch and the fuses. I lost the will and train of thought once I got confused though. 🙂

 

[retro 4,048]

Ok lets do it... you'll need two short jumper wires for this test.

 

Unplug the ignition switch from the harness and attach one jumper between the Red/Black and Pink wire spades inside the ignition switch connector. Attach the other jumper between the Red and the Black wire spades inside the ignition switch connector.

 

Be careful with those jumpers.... you'll be handling battery voltage with a high amount of current potential with both jumpers. If you accidentally cause a short a fuse may blow, or damage to wiring or the connector may occur.

 

See if it shifts.

[slowindown 494]

This thread is like a good good mystery novel. I feel like we’re about to find out whodunnit. 

[jeepwm69 7,601]

I don't have any ES machines, but I'm watching this one just to find out "whodunit"

 

I've had some squirrely electrical stuff from the connectors.  One that immediately comes to mind is the 07 420 I rebuilt that would start in Neutral, and in every gear but 1st.  Took me awhile to figure out the whole "start in gear" thing wasn't bad, only first gear.

 

The big plug for the gear position switch wasn't making a good connection on the pins for 1st gear only, so it wouldn't start in 1st gear, but all the other pins in that plug were connecting fine.

 

I snipped the wires off of either side of the plug, tied them together, and it was fine.

 

So when checking for voltage, make sure you're checking on both sides anywhere there's a plug.  You might have power going in, but not power going out.

[shadetree 5,882]

my money is on a bad wire harness.

[Bossdaddy 209]

OK guys, First test, I unhooked the positive post from the battery cause these jumpers are extremely close then hooked up the jumpers one on r/b to pink and the other went r/b making sure I had nothing touching then hooked the positive lead back. I noticed the green neutral light came on even though the key was off, pushed the shift buttons and nothing happened. Rechecked all connections still nothing.

[Bossdaddy 209]

Performed second test as instructed and got no shift.

[retro 4,048]

2 hours ago, Bossdaddy said:

I noticed the green neutral light came on even though the key was off

 

Right, by unplugging the ignition switch and jumpering inside the switch connector the ignition switch is bypassed, taken out of circuit. I'm glad that the display meter is back in action!

 

OK the ignition switch bypass test left the fuses in the circuit.

 

EDITED because these test instructions did not include a circuit.

So lets bypass the fuses and switch by jumpering from the positive battery post to all four of the wire terminals inside the ignition switch harness connector.

 

See if it shifts.