Jump to content
jeepwm69

Hondamatic Engine clean up and rebuild

Recommended Posts

13 hours ago, Loosemarbles said:

You have your work cut out for you. I’m right across the bridge from you. It’s been nice all wk until now. Then it’s suppose to get cold this wk end. Might get out and do some squirrel hunting. 

 

Yeah I'm waiting on an oil pump screen to button up the back of this one, and am not in a  hurry to get it with the temps this weekend.

 

I have to go to a birthday party for my BIL tomorrow, but might try to take a cruise Sunday after church.  Doubt my oil screen will be here until middle of next week.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 

Got the oil screen from PSN today.  Finally!

 

Got it installed and the rear covers and pull start installed. 
 

Now I gotta wait on my cylinder guy to get me moving again.  I try not to bug him since he doesn’t really work on ATV’s but will bore cylinders for me.  
 

Dropped off 3 of the 05-11 500’s, two 500 Rubicons, and a 12-13 Foreman 500 footshift liquid cooled cylinder with him a couple of weeks ago. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 

You sure have ur work cut out for u! 
 

we can’t find bikes here for $600 unless it’s basically a frame & busted plastics hahaha

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
11 hours ago, Wheeler said:

You sure have ur work cut out for u! 
 

we can’t find bikes here for $600 unless it’s basically a frame & busted plastics hahaha


I was expecting this one to be much more trashed than it was. 
 

Buying this Rubicon and the parts bike ended being the best deal I have ever gotten ATV related

 

And I say that not even knowing if the Hondamatic  is good.  

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 

Didn't realize it had been so long since I messed with this one.  My ADD got the better of me with other stuff.

 

Got the cylinder/piston/cam installed yesterday.  Planned on getting up this morning to get the front cover put on, but slept in instead.

4E24506D-5BE0-4E37-9A57-940FC2C76E59.jpeg

B3D96C46-F44B-42C0-B23F-7CB4CE5D5487.jpeg

A45153C2-F489-4779-9C81-34D0ED364784.jpeg

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 

A little more progress this morning.  Clutch installed, front cover cleaned out, reinstalled with a new oil filter, shift seal, and front output seal.  Shift motor reinstalled.

 

 

 

Then split the oil tank and cleaned it out.   Gotta get some more Threebond to get the oil tank back together.

2590F871-0B12-409C-A2C9-2D20B1D249D4.jpeg

11472F34-165A-412E-9EB3-B6D05A2E5BBC.jpeg

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 

Holy crap, the Threebond 1184 I've been using has gone from $11/tube to $21/tube in the last year (since I last ordered on Amazon).

 

On a bright note, Hondabond 4 is only $10 for the same size tube, so ordered some Hondabond instead.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 

I got the engine back in the frame this weekend.  It fired right up, but immediately threw an error code 6/angle sensor.  When I tried to initialize the system I could hear the shift motor click/ not rotate, and upon inspection it appears that my swash plate is jammed up now.   It spun freely in both directions when I had the cases split, so who knows what I did to bind it up. 

 

I've reached out to Brian to see if he can offer any insight to what I might have done, but looks like I'm going to have to pull it back out and take it back apart.

 

Lesson learned!  Check the swash plate gear and make sure it spins with each step as you reassemble a Hondamatic engine!

  • Like 1
  • Sad 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 

Had a LONG talk with Brian Bertram last night about my Hondamatic.  He thinks the swash plate is just jammed and that i can pop it loose, so I'm going to try that. Apparently sometimes the shift motor will try to go too far in one direction and jam up, usually as a result of a bad angle sensor.

 

We talked about Hondamatic design, oil pump designs, different problems we've seen in engines, other Honda models etc etc etc.

 

The guy's knowledge on the Hondamatic Rubicons is staggering, and like most of us here, he does it as a hobby, not for a living. 

 

He's delving into the Pioneer 1000 side of things now, fixing busted ones.  He also mentioned messing with the Rancher Hondamatics from the 04-07 400's, so I know @wheelsquad would find that interesting.

 

I'm going to be out of pocket for a few days, but will update this when I get the chance to try popping that swash plate loose with a screwdriver.

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 

Well, I did get a minute yesterday, put a screwdriver on the swash plate gear (that the shift motor turns) and gave it a tap, and it freed up and now spins easily in both directions with my finger.  So that's a HUGE relief.

 

Won't have time to mess with it again till we get home next weekend, but at least I don't have the "Have to pull the engine and tear it all the way down next weekend" hanging over my head.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 

IT LIVES!

 

Went out early yesterday morning before it got too hot, got exhaust reinstalled, front driveline greased up and installed, front diff bolted back in, and fired it up and rode it around the block.  Pulls great, sounds great. 

 

Took the new carb off and rebuilt the old carb and installed it (saving the new carb for the future if I can)

 

This was my first foray into a Rubicon so glad I didn't have to tear back into it.   Rebuilt crank by Vince, 1.5 oversize Namura piston with a G&H bore, and a full tear down and clean out, along with the 7% gear reduction by swapping in a 450 Foreman secondary gear.

 

Still have quite a lot of work to do to get it ready to ride.  Steering needs alignment, have to install a brake M/C and bleed brakes, change fluids in the diffs, and reinstall plastics and racks, front bumper and winch.

 

Brian was a great help and talking to him for a bit about Hondas was just like the time I spent on the phone talking to Vince (Mr Crankshaft).  These guys really know their stuff, and the knowledge they are willing to share is most helpful and informative.

 

 

 

 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 

Got up and got a little more done on this one this morning. 

 

Had to pull the fuel gauge sending unit.  It was all corroded from sitting in an empty tank for a couple of years.  Hosed it down with starter fluid and worked it back and forth for a while and it now appears to work and read correctly.

 

Went to install the floorboard supports (wire supports on this model) and got one side on, went around to the other and had a broken off bolt.  Drilled it out, and when I went to run a tap through the hole, broke the $%$^&# tap off.  I left that one alone until I got over my frustration.

 

Got the airbox installed along with the factory snorkel/air duct.  One thing to know about installing a lift on the 05-11 Foremans and 05-14 Rubicons.  It repositions the shocks to be right in the way of the bolts that hold the airbox in place.  They're easy to get to on a stock machine, and a PITA on a lifted machine. 

 

Ran a tap through all the front bumper and front rack mounting holes.  Luckily none of those were broken off.

 

Drilled out two broken off bolts where the foot peg steps (little serrated metal things) bolt on.  Didn't have a tap to retap the holes, obviously.

 

Ran out of time after that.  Need to get a front bumper painted and installed, along with a winch plate.  Then I'll run winch wiring while I still have fenders off.  Then about all I'll have to do is reinstall the fenders, racks, flooboards and she'll be ready to ride (after it cools off a little around here!)

 

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
On 7/5/2023 at 10:56 AM, jeepwm69 said:

 

 

Still ——   have to install a brake M/C and bleed brakes

 

 

 

 

 

I recently bought and installed  4 of those $17 master cylinders off e-bay on my Atv’s and my buddy bought two for his.  All 6 have been working fine for us.  5 of the 6 I mentioned are on disc conversion kits , not that it makes a difference. All 6 master cylinders cost less than one  OEM.  

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
7 hours ago, Fishfiles said:

I recently bought and installed  4 of those $17 master cylinders off e-bay on my Atv’s and my buddy bought two for his.  All 6 have been working fine for us.  5 of the 6 I mentioned are on disc conversion kits , not that it makes a difference. All 6 master cylinders cost less than one  OEM.  

 

I got a used one from PSN during their 4th of July sale.  Was about $20.

 

I guess I need to look at the Amazon ones for future use though.  Which one did you get?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
 

Putting this post in the Hondamatic thread because I think it's relevant.

 

Had a 2014 Rubicon dropped off last week by a local crop scout.  Throwing a code 6/ angle sensor.

 

Thus far I've tried re-initializing the system, which resulted in hearing the motor spin to a stop, then nothing.

 

Swapped off what I suspect is a chinese angle sensor with one off of my extra Rubicon engine (which is unproven, so not sure if it's good), same result.

 

Ordered a new angle sensor from RMATV yesterday.  I need to keep one on hand anyway, and OEM parts seem to keep going up up up in price.  If it works, I'll order another spare.  If it doesn't, I'll drop it in the toolbox and keep digging.

 

The owner of this Rubicon is HARD on equipment.  Lots of busted up plastics, and you can tell the machine has just been ridden and not cared for at all.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 

This is another bit of excellent advice from @Brian Bertram 

 

This 2014 that was brought to me had angle sensor code 6.  When I attempted to initialize I could only hear the shift motor spin in one direction, and you should hear it spin in one direction, then the other.

 

New OEM angle sensor didn’t change anything, and Brian mentioned that he had one machine that would spin in one direction, and repeatedly lock up the swash plate gear.  He finally discovered a broken wire going to the angle sensor.

 

I had to pull the front fender to do a continuity test on the angle sensor to ECU wires.  Sure enough, had a break in one of the wires. 
 

Spliced in a new section of wire and everything works great again.

 

 

6E6BC256-5447-4672-B693-4E5D12B5FEA0.jpeg

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
 
18 hours ago, Melatv said:

Your are great at getting things done ☺️

 

I hate electrical stuff.  If people like you dumb it down enough for me I can get it done LOL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 

So when looking in these Hondamatic machines, most of the failures were in the 01-03 models.  Something along the lines of a pressure relief valve in the oil pump sticks open, starves the Hondamatic for oil, and kills it. 

In 2004 Honda updated the oil pump to fix this problem.  So according to Brian, failures in 2004 models are exceedingly rare.

Then in 2005, Honda also tweaked the Hondamatic, so 2005-2014 have the new oil pump AND a slightly tweaked Hondamatic, and according to Brian, he almost NEVER sees a bad Hondamatic in the 05-up machines.

 

Just something to consider when looking at them.  In the case of this 2012, it looked to be ridden hard and put up wet, but the ultimate problem was the oil pump chain coming off.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 

Took this one for the first long ride Saturday.  Didn't do so well.

 

Ran fine.  I'm occasionally having trouble with it idling.  Sometimes it idles fine, other times it won't.  If it won't idle, and I speed up the idle to where it will, the next thing I know it's racing at idle.  New Honda OEM carb, so guessing I have an air leak somewhere.

 

But I have a bigger problem.

 

We were out all afternoon, but probably didn't go 10 miles all day.  A lot more sitting and drinking beer than actually riding. Was a warm day, so the engine was warm with the fan running periodically.  We got to the farthest point from home, a sandbar, and I drove down to the water's edge and when I turned to go back up the hill, the machine started struggling to pull, eventually making a ratcheting noise.  I put it in low and it did a little better, but something was still obviously not right.  I shut it down, and we hung out on the sandbar for a bit. 

 

When we were ready to leave, I told the guys I would try to get it moving to get a running start to get up over the hill, and if I didn't make it, I'd hook the winch onto one of them and they could tow me in.   To my surprise, machine started up and pulled great.  No issues at all getting up the hill.  We started home and after the machine got good and warm I noticed it wasn't pulling quite as hard (like it was slipping a bit), but it still got me home ok without making any weird noises again.

 

So, yesterday I did some digging around and came across this thread on the old board.  In that thread, a guy with similar symptoms disassembled his Hondamatic and found internal damage either from sinking it (sand intrusion scoring the pistons and piston bores, allowing oil to bypass them once it got hot and thin).  End result, new Hondamatic.    I really HOPE that isn't the problem here, but given that this machine was snorkeled and already had a 1.00 oversized piston in the engine when I got it, it's not going to be surprising if that's the case.

 

https://www.hondaforeman.com/threads/2-possible-issues-clutch-slipping-and-high-oil-pressure.164149/page-3#post-3174505

 

I do have an extra Rubicon engine here, so what I'll probably do is rebuild it, and just swap the whole engines out, then I can tear back into this one and pull the Hondamatic apart, see if @Brian Bertram can do anything with it.

 

In the meantime, he told me to do an oil pressure test and see what I get.  I have the Honda oil pressure testing gauge and fitting around here somewhere from working on my buddy's Rincon, just have to  find it.

 

I've considered trying some 20W50 oil in this one, since it does great until the oil gets really hot and thin.  Right now I have Rotella T4 15W40 in it. 

 

But for now, first step is to get an oil pressure test done and see what I have. 

 

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
 
1 hour ago, Fishfiles said:

Wasn't it the song from "Frozen " , " Let it go , let it go ....." 

 

Oh heck no.  Now I'm invested!  Throw away some good money after bad!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
23 minutes ago, jeepwm69 said:

 

Oh heck no.  Now I'm invested!  Throw away some good money after bad!

When is enough , enough !!!!  The hole is getting bigger and bigger ---- you could be riding one ,  instead of planning motor rebuilds and swops , which is money and time 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 
1 hour ago, Fishfiles said:

When is enough , enough !!!!  The hole is getting bigger and bigger ---- you could be riding one ,  instead of planning motor rebuilds and swops , which is money and time 

 

I say let him finish it man.... Knowledge isn't free and he is the only one willing to pay the price, then he's sharing his new knowledge with us -- so we are getting it all for free! Hammer down Jeep!

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...