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Halfdog

2003 450 Foreman ES...crank turns CCW, but not CW

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Bought this as non running.   Previous owner took it to shop and they pulled the starter motor and recoil pull assembly of it, and I guess told him it would cost a lot to fix.   Then his neighbor kid got it, over his head, now it's mine.

 

Anyway, using a long bar on the recoil hub, I can turn the crank multiple revs in reverse (çcw) but only so far cw then it stops hard.   Inspection of bore and valves with borescope looks ok as does the valve movement under the cover.

 

Guess I'm working toward pulling the whole engine so I can go at it from either end until I find the problem.  Unless someone here recognizes this symptom and can direct me otherwise.

 

Thanks for any wisdom!

IMG_20221124_123145414.jpg

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You know the head and jug can be removed easily from a 450 while engine still in the frame , there is no over head cam or chain to deal with , it is a push rod engine , if you pull the head , you might could find the problem without removing the engine , could be as simple as a push rod out of place or bent , maybe a bent or dropped valve 

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Good advise as the I'll probably pull the jug eventually, might as well be sooner then later.   Might make it easier to wiggle out of the frame if I have to anyway.

IMG_20221130_070821902.jpg

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as fish ^^^ said, pull the head, jug, then try turning it over. also..remove the spark plug, see if it will spin over CW then ?. with the spark plug in, they are kinda hard to spin over, but can be done with plug in. a bent/stuck valve could be hitting the piston on top dead center, keeping it from going all the way around.

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" \Half Dog " , your a " Lucky Dog " now that Shade' chimed in on your thread  ^^^ !

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Thanks guys... Will pull the jug next.   Spark plug is out for fancy snap on horoscope to go in.   All looks ok inside there.   At TDC, both rockers have a little clearance, and going çcw I can see both valves operate.  But going cw results in a jam at seemingly different points.   Can always then rotate çcw as much as I want.

 

Comes down to either pulling the engine (loosening front diff, etc) or standing it on its tail and removing just the front cover and clutches.   Sounds like I'm pulling the jug first either way.

 

Suspect list:

Timing chain stuff

Cam lobes/ push rod ends

One way bearings

Something loose in gearbox

 

Stay tuned.   May take a few days for progress.

 

Thanks!

 

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What does the oil and filter look like , any grindings , flakes or metallic sheen --- so many things it could be , one way bearings sounds like it could fit the problem , maybe the stator 

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It's not very common but I have seen the bolts work loose on the stator/flywheel and cause this. Where your getting complete revolutions one way but not the other I'm going to guess the problem is in the bottom end, not the top. Everything is just a guess though until the problem is found. Did you happen to get the story of what they was doing when it quit? 

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Nah, no idea on what happened.   It did have a lot mud stains all the way up on the gas tank and rubber baffles.   Would be interesting to know if he hydro locked it.    But in central KS?   Maybe.

 

I did read about the stator flywheel bolts and it's on my mind.   Kind of working towards pulling the head, then the whole engine and both end covers.   Go from there.

 

A few other clues learned:

Dealer sticker on front frame says Indiana in 2003 ( I bought it here in KC 11/22) so it's about 20 years old.   I think I'm the third owner not counting the 17teen year old based on what I was told.

Has a new battery (disconnected) dated 4/22.   Fully charged now.

Has new looking tires

Has a service ticket on the key fob dated 8/22  This is probably when it stalled and he took it in and they told him it was a lot $ to repair.   He gave it to the neighbor kid, who sold it to me 11/22.

Hooked up the battery, got a reading on the display:   ~4000 mi & 766 hr  = 5.2mph

Drained the oil and looked at the filter.   Nothing out of the ordinary.

I payed $800 for it.   So some room to fix the motor without getting upside down :)

I probably will get to it again this weekend...pull the head...pull the engine...pull the covers...ordering a flywheel puller now :)

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22 hours ago, Halfdog said:

Thanks guys... Will pull the jug next.   Spark plug is out for fancy snap on horoscope to go in.   All looks ok inside there.   At TDC, both rockers have a little clearance, and going çcw I can see both valves operate.  But going cw results in a jam at seemingly different points.   Can always then rotate çcw as much as I want.

 

Comes down to either pulling the engine (loosening front diff, etc) or standing it on its tail and removing just the front cover and clutches.   Sounds like I'm pulling the jug first either way.

 

Suspect list:

Timing chain stuff

Cam lobes/ push rod ends

One way bearings

Something loose in gearbox

 

Stay tuned.   May take a few days for progress.

 

Thanks!

 

even with putting a bore scope in the cylinder, this will not show a stuck or bent valve, unless !!, you aim it up towards the valves ?, which i have no clue about this..as i have never done this. i'd start with pulling the head, try turning it over , see if it rotates all the way around. once the head is off, then you can see if a valve is stuck open. only time i have ran across a piston not going all the way over is when the piston was hitting something ?, or a broken gear teeth jammed on the crank gear ?. please keep us posted on what you find !.

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Well I've pulled my first quad motor (with the help of my younger brother).   Had it up on the bench, applied a speed wrench with 17mm to the coil pull hub.   Still jamming occasionally, then not at all, then jamming.   Pulled the clutch cover off, all looks ok.   Jamming gone.  Re install the clutch cover.  More speed wrenching forward and back.  More jamming, then free again! Turned the motor on it's side.  Jamming.  Back level, not jamming.

 

Then we pulled the mageto cover and there was the loose fly wheel bolt rolling around wreaking havock!  And the other 4 bolts were all loose too!

 

So you guys were right!

 

Now I'm in the market for a new stator.  Don't see any OEM ones available, several on Amazon.   With just 4k miles in thinking to leave the cam chain as is.   Getting new valve stem seals, lapping the valves, debating getting a bore job and new piston (it looks ok).   

 

What was so odd was it sure seemed to go çcw but jam on cw.  But as we rocked the motor we got various results.  So check out the pics.

 

Just need the new stator and trying to figure what else as long as it's on the bench.   Suggestions?  Thanks guys!

IMG_20221201_202352038.jpg

IMG_20221201_201231801.jpg

IMG_20221201_201341777.jpg

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Ricky Stator is a good source , here is the link

 https://www.rickystator.com/

 

 Motorsportsnation.com is a good used source 

 

you did not mention it , but the pulse coil  must be trashed also , that same coil  fits about every Honda out there , 300, 350 , 450 , etc 

 

 Or , I could likely sell you one as I have a lot of 450 parts , find your best deal and I'll see if I can bet the price for a brother member , LOL 

 

I wonder what that coil was worth when you could buy it ? 

 

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to add to fish's list of stator's ^^, the trx400fm also has the very same stator if my memory serve's me right ?. just not sure if they will swap out for the es model's ?, i do not work on es models much at all.

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4 hours ago, Halfdog said:

Well I've pulled my first quad motor (with the help of my younger brother).   Had it up on the bench, applied a speed wrench with 17mm to the coil pull hub.   Still jamming occasionally, then not at all, then jamming.   Pulled the clutch cover off, all looks ok.   Jamming gone.  Re install the clutch cover.  More speed wrenching forward and back.  More jamming, then free again! Turned the motor on it's side.  Jamming.  Back level, not jamming.

 

Then we pulled the mageto cover and there was the loose fly wheel bolt rolling around wreaking havock!  And the other 4 bolts were all loose too!

 

So you guys were right!

 

Now I'm in the market for a new stator.  Don't see any OEM ones available, several on Amazon.   With just 4k miles in thinking to leave the cam chain as is.   Getting new valve stem seals, lapping the valves, debating getting a bore job and new piston (it looks ok).   

 

What was so odd was it sure seemed to go çcw but jam on cw.  But as we rocked the motor we got various results.  So check out the pics.

 

Just need the new stator and trying to figure what else as long as it's on the bench.   Suggestions?  Thanks guys!

IMG_20221201_202352038.jpg

IMG_20221201_201231801.jpg

IMG_20221201_201341777.jpg

replace the cam chain !. now is the time to do this while the engine is on the bench. i only use oem or D.I.D. cam chains, fairly cheap on ebay. they run about 40 something bucks, worth every dime.

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get the flywheel off, inspect the one-way bearing. also, DO NOT USE ANY CHEAP KNOCK-OFF STATOR FROM EBAY !, THEY ARE CHINA MADE...NOT WORTH THE TROUBLE. hit fish up on his offer, i'd toss used oem in that engine b4 i used a china part all day long. i do not have a spare stator laying around ?, or i'd let you have it.

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We know that the 2nd gen 2002-2004 450 part numbers are different than the 1st gen 1998-2001 450 and 400 , some of the parts will fit both gens , I would think the stators are the same , but when you look it up and cross reference it , this is what you get 

 

  

This Honda 31120-HN0-671 STATOR fits the following models and components:

Aftermarket Parts ELECTRICAL Ignition Stators & Coils

Honda ATV 2002 TRX450FE A - FOURTRAX FOREMAN ES Alternator

Honda ATV 2004 TRX450FM A - FOURTRAX FOREMAN S Alternator

Honda ATV 2004 TRX450FE A - FOURTRAX FOREMAN ES Alternator

Honda ATV 2002 TRX450FM A - FOURTRAX FOREMAN S Alternator

Honda ATV 2003 TRX450FM A - FOURTRAX FOREMAN S Alternator

Honda ATV 2003 TRX450FE A - FOURTRAX FOREMAN ES Alternator

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Rear crankcase cover is the same 99-04, so likely a higher powered stator put in the later models, but will interchange with the earlier models since the covers are the same (that the stator bolts to)

 

https://www.partzilla.com/product/honda/11351-HN0-670?ref=633c0db688b7901ce7339f46d0bdf165b0d0ef5d

 

Whole shebang for an 03 ES.  Will give you an extra rear crankcase cover and stator cover.....

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/255317520693?hash=item3b721c3135:g:Du0AAOSwJ1dh14Re&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAA4Nq4tEBstHJna4oVWoO9TkRssafs%2BFUUBTH0wuyJVBepgocGR8nNKzYtBq65pRrNeXVL6tNcyojmfjp2o9Ytcw07PklPG7rJNlgTjZOX5hPe1Y3xG8yYXEsGnoFwQqGYwO9N146DJ8wzDTgYjiAXI2rGdEzJVD1HRpK0plTS8tONQeuRlcXW8wBMaEYG4sp77IcF71Bd07boG6G6kFMwzLqdRsAVKFQQ%2B0w0ftvFV%2F69fCeK%2FvUiNWgCp%2BRF8nJJuBDQoa%2Bmjz6%2BA88bSU%2FRjJXIr92oh%2BXth7ON7TMsY8D%2F|tkp%3ABk9SR_LLv7iaYQ

 

Stator only for an 02

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/334190898984?epid=1311837237&hash=item4dcf546f28:g:eiEAAOSwtjZhctTk&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoJSj0gIUv7o9e8WpTJtD1X5VCUO68n0uaH905pa7kW1vrBlVQYk2K8WDtO1De%2FrGPYEaL86h1DWT1PydG9YP1NND95E1ZVW4S5bpUEEsRASaAOexJ0Qfv2q7BQ6lmWvVKyoqecRgyw4W1f1W2lERsNj%2FevlG%2B8a9eZvFBiSMZ1if4G7JuUpMkDmF2eNp9WCEHx9lWdMpfJD6gbJwKp2bxnQ%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR_jLv7iaYQ

 

Stator only for an 03

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/255352397442?hash=item3b74305e82:g:3-wAAOSwMXdh8MW1&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoGz0bndXwYmCyLQb1ly2Mg3FH9qWKYjXRzSGt8g2CObdTwyB8DmqFw4ocITvkjTd%2FKeigPD2eHZmq8Emdj%2FDIN%2B3iKEsN1fPaoI883qChAOZC3EN1%2B3xmEJAMji6PYGZx1ra01OoerXZeOGjcIIf0vToOmvlVSFZeOkEp0y6pgtpUE2PwhbgBqTTAPom%2BQOprG26pQtbFyf7tGoeZiq4L7M%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR_rLv7iaYQ

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On 11/30/2022 at 11:07 AM, toodeep said:

It's not very common but I have seen the bolts work loose on the stator/flywheel and cause this. Where your getting complete revolutions one way but not the other I'm going to guess the problem is in the bottom end, not the top. Everything is just a guess though until the problem is found. Did you happen to get the story of what they was doing when it quit? 

The bolts coming loose might not be very common but I have seen it more than once!

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So I have been in the engine re assembly process for a while now.  Finally have all the parts.   Decided on a new did cam chain, but it seems almost same length as the old :).   Decided against boring it, figure I can do that if needed without pulling the engine again.  New valve seals of course.    I just want to see this thing run!...I bought it not running.   So another week or two.

IMG_20221210_125320584_HDR.jpg

IMG_20221207_194530017.jpg

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16 hours ago, Halfdog said:

So I have been in the engine re assembly process for a while now.  Finally have all the parts.   Decided on a new did cam chain, but it seems almost same length as the old :).   Decided against boring it, figure I can do that if needed without pulling the engine again.  New valve seals of course.    I just want to see this thing run!...I bought it not running.   So another week or two.

IMG_20221210_125320584_HDR.jpg

IMG_20221207_194530017.jpg

can you tell which cam chain in this pic is bad ? -->

bad timing chain, '86 trx350 fourtrax 4x4 002.JPG

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7 minutes ago, shadetree said:

can you tell which cam chain in this pic is bad ? -->

bad timing chain, '86 trx350 fourtrax 4x4 002.JPG

I would say the bottom chain is more worn as it can be bowed more than the other , I would say that holds true , if both chains are bowed to their max 

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I took that pic too... Older chain did show a little more twist.  This bike has 766 hrs and 4,000 miles.

Assembled original the piston and rings into cylinder last night.   Waiting on some OEM valve stem seals to put the head together next.

 

IMG_20221210_125512584_HDR.jpg

IMG_20221210_125527206_HDR.jpg

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Just to wrap up.  One of the stator bolts backed out.   New stator, new cam chain, lapped in the same valves, cleaned the carb jets, put it all together, and it started on the first crank!   Runs great!   Enjoying it, looking for another project bike!  Thanks for the all the good tips!

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