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Get-n-birdy

2000 Honda foreman 450s no spark

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Key was left on.

 

Battery went dead overnight.

 

Charged it up and plowed snow with it till the battery wouldn't run the winch anymore.

 

Charged the battery. Now no spark.

 

Main fuse was popped. Put new fuse in. No spark. Still no clue why that fuse popped?

 

Replaced the battery. No spark.

 

Regulator/rectifier checked out bad. Replaced with China junk. Still no spark. Checked it, it was bad. Learn hard lesson. Buy Honda rectifier. Still no spark. Rectifier checks out good.

 

Machine is 20 years old and been beat to death its whole life. It's not a toy, it's a tool. If it's running, it's pushing or pulling something or working. Have done the regular maintenance spring and fall myself and split the case open to fix stuff that needed to be with a shifting issue a decade ago. It's been a bullet proof machine.

 

Replaced the stator and ignition pulse generator just because it's 20 years old.

 

Had an issue with the kill switch and the kill switch wires crossed and started smoking. Replaced the kill switch assembly. Still no spark.

 

Replaced ICM with china junk, bad idea. Still no spark, yet the brand new kill switch started smoking. Another hard lesson learned. Replaced the ICM with new Honda ICM. Still no spark.

 

The kill switch now has no continuity like the manual says their should be at the bl/g and bl/w wire off the kill switch harness?

 

Have poked and prodded every wire for a short and continuity in the whole wiring harness. Everything seems good, except there's no continuity between the kill switch bl/g and bl/w wires like the service manual test says there should be? Guessing the cheap Chinese junk icm possibly fried the kill switch? And hope the possibly bad kill switch hasn't effected the new Honda ICM?

 

The lights all work, the display works, the neutral safety switch works, the fan control unit was bypassed to a manual switch over a decade ago and has never caused an issue. The oil light has been on for the same length of time. Starter engages and spins the motor fine. Can't find any short or continuity issues anywhere. Replaced the ignition switch on the off chance something was bad in that.

 

The other day had a dim ground light show up off the harness from the stator wiring to the ICM yellow wire, with the icm harness disconnected from the stator. So the wire coming from the icm to the stator plug, but the stator isn't connected, if that makes sense? There shouldn't be ground leaking out the ICM to the stator plug should there? It won't show up on a continuity test and is just a tiny flicker of light on a test light.

 

Lots of stupidity on my part in not systematically going through all the testing like I should have but was pretty swamped with the holidays and made the huge mistake and I knew better and just started throwing parts which is beyond ignorant. Then to make dumb decisions worse, ordered cheap Chinese parts.

 

Now my kill switch is testing bad and my ICM is leaking ground. Stupid is as stupid does!

 

If anyone has any wisdom to add it'd be greatly appreciated. If not at least I got to vent and will keep the post updated in case it could help someone else in the future.

 

Can't see the forest through the trees and am at my whits end!

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Welcome to the forums! Im not a utility quad guy. But there are alot of them that frequent this forum. I never saw anything about pulling grounds and cleaning the metal surfaces of corrosion. That and i would also suggest un-plugging all the plugs. Inspecting for burned up terminals. If they are good put some di-electric grease in it for good measure. My .02

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Appreciate it. 

 

Have greased all the ignition system connections and triple checked the grounds. 

 

Just baffled. Can usually figure this stuff out but this one's just got me stumped. Keep going round Robin and know I'm probably missing something excruciatingly simple. 

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No worries! Be patient and others will be along with alot more knowledge on your specific machine shortly. Electrical stuff drives me nuts. Thankfully race quads dont have much left after removing most of it lol.

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Welcome to the forum!

Well it sounds like the kill switch might be junk, but you can unplug that from the main wiring harness and use a jumper wire to jump the Black/Green (should be battery voltage on that wire with the key turned on) to the Black/White inside the main harness plug to bypass that kill switch for testing. If you get spark with the jumper in place then odds are an OEM Honda switches assembly will fix it for good. If you don't get spark with the jumper in place check the ignition fuse for battery voltage on both sides of the fuse, then check the ignition switch.

 

Let us know how that test goes.

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You'll need to use the recoil starter to crank the motor over with that switches harness unplugged. You can use the starter motor though, if you have a 2nd jumper wire and are careful where ya poke it.... jump the Black/Brown (battery voltage on that connector) to the Yellow/Red connector inside the main harness plug momentarily to crank the motor. Or you can jumper the solenoid and accomplish the same thing. Be careful with those jumpers....

 

 

st-sw.png

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Appreciate the help!

 

Unplugged the kill switch assembly and used a jumper on it from bl/g to bl/w.

 

Jumped the solenoid and no spark. 

 

The ignition fuse and the 30 amp main both have power going in and out. The rest of the fuses, wiring and all the lights and switches work and can't find anything odd in all the ignition system wiring with continuity, shorts or wires that look worn, pinched or burnt. Other than a dim ground signal on from the icm yellow wire to the plug before the stator. Have dielectric greased everything and have gone through and checked both sides of every plug and all the connections are good. 

 

The new ignition switch is a honda OEM part and tests out fine.

 

Coil tests out good too. Have used multiple new spark plugs. Swapped coils out. 

 

Going to throw the old stator and ignition pulse generator in just for fun tomorrow to sew if anything changes. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Are all of the parts on the bike OEM now?

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best thing, put all new oem parts back on it, including the cdi !!. stop putting china ! on it !.

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Your getting a power signal from the yellow wire, harness side of the stator connection? The cheap parts might have fried the regulator again. 

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Ya, put your OEM stator and pulse generator back in the motor before going any further.

 

If still no spark after putting those back on then trace and verify that ya have battery voltage through the ignition switch and then through the kill switch. Then verify that you have positive  battery voltage on the Black/White stripe wire in the CDI (ICM) connector plug with the key on.

 

If your kill switch is dead unplug it and jumper to bypass it while testing, or leave it plugged in and  snip off and short the two black wires together in the switches sub-harness. You can replace that switches assembly once ya find the problem.

 

If you have battery voltage all of the way  to the Black/White stripe wire at the CDI connector, but still no spark wiith the CDI plugged in, verify that the Light Green/Red stripe wire in the CDI connector is supplying a hard ground with the trans in neutral. Let us know those results before going any further.

 

Note that a very soft ground may be sensed on the Yellow wire on the harness side stator connector with the regulator/rectifier unplugged. That may be normal behavior  since the CDI is reading one leg of the alternator windings. Don't let that bother ya just yet.... continue to diagnose the ignition in an orderly fashion.

 

ign.png

 

 

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When the stator is unplugged from the 5 pronged plug, the yellow wire from the icm on the male end of the 5 pronged plug, has a tiny, faint flicker off a test light from + on the battery. The icm is a new oem honda part. 

 

But on a multi meter there's no continuity to ground from the stator,  rectifier or even the icm yellow wire when everything is plugged into the harness, if that makes sense? 

 

Learned a lesson I already knew and man does it stink kicking myself for knowing better. First parts I've bought from china after listening to someone tell me that they've gotten far better. Yeah right, not from what I'm seeing. 

 

Am going to put the old stator in and see if that changes anything, but not optimistic.

 

The rectifier tests out good for forward and reverse bias, hopefully that's not cooked?

 

Never tested a icm and that's way outside my grasp if it's even possible.

 

Widdling it down to an idiotic decision to put a junk Chinese stator in and am hoping the rectifier and icm aren't cooked, but won't be surprised if they are. 

 

Cheap and easy are never actually that. 

 

To anyone reading this, take people's advice who know about this stuff and put oem parts in and resist the temptation to save a buck, cause in the end you'll spend more money, time and frustration. 

 

Appreciate all the help!

 

 

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Retro, 

 

Appreciate all the help! Will systematically go through your list tomorrow. 

 

Amazing the machine is 20 years old and other than bypassing the fan control unit, the machines electrical system is basically untouched. It sits outside a lot, plows a lot, pulls a lot and never complains. About time it has an issue after 20 years and most of that wasn't the machines fault. Like I tell my kids, operator error.  

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Ya forget about that yellow wire going to the CDI for now, its probably normal. Yours is a simple ignition system to diagnose once all of the china parts are off of it.

 

Only the wealthiest of folks can afford to buy china parts. That fact will always be true. You'll survive though... we all make mistakes, no worries.

 

May I ask ya how you hooked up your manual fan switch? Is your toggle wired directly to the fan motor? You didn't ground the Blue oil temp sensor wire did'ja?

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First and foremost, THANK YOU!! for all the help!

 

Put the 20 year old original stator and ignition pulse generator back in. Jumped the kill switch wires, bl/g to bl/w with a thin, short piece of solid wire, in the green 6 pronged kill switch female plug off the main harness. Have spark now. 

 

Plugged the kill switch green 6 pronged assembly back into the harness and no spark. The kill switch is shot. 

 

The Chinese, cheap stator isn't/doesn't/didn't work, even though it tested out good. The 20 year old original stator still works for spark. 

 

The old original kill switch and new honda OEM kill switch got fried from my stupidity of throwing cheap parts from China at it. If I would have did it right in the first place, would have saved a lot of money, time and frustration. Not sure if the kill switch frying was from the non oem icm, staror or a rectifier I had tried, that were all made in China?

 

The fan control unit went out a very long time ago and a honda tech told me to bypass it by cutting the blue wire off the fan and run a + lead to the fan with a fuse back to the battery and put a switch on it knowing it was a work machine. Everyone who drives it knows to flip that on and it stays on when using it. That's been probably 15 ish years ago now and no issues with it. The blue end from the fan control unit isn't hooked to anything. 

 

The oil plug finally stripped out and had to fix that. Ended up not having to drill it out. Nothing was broken, it was a mild strip out after probably 45 plus oil changes. Used a 1/2" x 20 tap and bolt with a new crush washer with a rubber seal on it. Just had to tap and flush it to make sure to get rid of all alum shavings.  

 

Hopefully didn't make the posts to long. Was trying to explain the situation as best I could to help someone else down the road as much as I've been helped by all the great people who are will to share great, helpful information like retro and others. 

 

Thanks again!

Edited by Get-n-birdy
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I would just bypass the kill switch that is very seldom used to get it going again. Glad your getting it narrowed down though. 

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1 hour ago, Get-n-birdy said:

Hopefully didn't make the posts to long.

 

Haha.... very few folks rant on as long as I do in posts. The more information provided the better! 🙂

 

It looks like your issues have all been discovered and soon will be corrected. Thanks for sharing your experiences! Hang around after you're back up and running.... we are a friendly group that ya might have some fun with.

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So welcome to our friendly and helpful forum Get-n.  It's easy to justify using parts that are much cheaper and say they work on your particular model.  But there are many cases that you end up spending the money on OEM and unfortunately end up causing other problems from the cheap parts.  Now that you do have spark is your 450 running also or are there other issues you are having?  Either way you are certainly on track to having her back doing work for you.  And we do appreciate getting back here when you have success to let everybody know the advise was helpful.  Hopefully she will be purring away soon...... 

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On your kill switch , try taking a can of WD40 with a straw and flood the switch out , while you  work the button back and forth repeatedly and then spray it some more  ,  might just be some corrosion or an arch mark on the contacts  

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Thanks for the welcoming attitude!

 

Don't have it put back together yet. Pulled the fuel tank and everything off the top of it. It was running pre no spark problem, so hopefully she still runs after she's put back together. 

 

Flushed the old one with wd but never thought to flush the new one that I fried, good idea. Will try that and see if it can be brought back to life. 

 

 

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Got the old work horse back together and starts right up like normal. Did 3 oil changes on it to hopefully get any debris out of the motor from dealing with the stator and tapping out the oil drain plug. Put the plow on and am looking forward to plowimg with it again after being down for 7 weeks, along with the 2003 prairie 650 and the 1977 kubota L295DT. Usually when they are all home and running, it doesn't snow. 

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Congrats! Thanks for letting us know that its good to go!

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Glad you got the 450 running again, looks like I will be plowing with my 450 today....

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