How to properly prep your Honda ES shift system

[Fishfiles 20,145]

 

[freebo86 291]

25 minutes ago, Fishfiles said:

PB Blaster is ok , but here are a lot better penetrants out there , AeroKroil is my favorite , Deep Creep and 3M 5 way spray are also  good --- a lot of people swear by 50/50 mix of acetone and ATF 

 

I've used 50/50 Acetone & ATF Mix. Works well, smells like death. The jam nut idea is great! I'll have to see if I can find half nuts in the right pitch

 

That is what I used to break the rear cam bolt free on the brake panel.. then the brake panel snapped 😞 So I gotta get that fixed too.

Edited December 21, 2020 by freebo86

[freebo86 291]

First time out since redoing the shift motor.  Machine shifts smoothly and seemed good. Still need to adjust the clutch. 
 

Not sure if I don’t understand how the ES system works, so can someone answer a few questions for me?

 

1) Should I be able to downshift on the fly from let’s say 5th to 1st and go down all the gears? Or is the shifting speed depended? It seems my downshifts are slow and take me holding the button before it will go and almost as if the machine won’t let me downshift until a certain speed/rpm. Is this possible ? 
 

2) At some points I find that I am in a lower gear than I started with going through the puddle or incline. Is this thing supposed down shift on its own at points when it realizes more torque is needed?

 

3) Once while driving I was slanted, needed to shift down from 3rd to 2nd and it wouldn’t downshift. After hitting the button it just didn’t want to and threw the - -. Turn off machine, turn it on. Same gear it was in, still nothing. Then off and on again as I was getting ready to get the emergency shifter it went down. And worked flawlessly for the remainder of the day. 

 

While I did the shift motor I pulled the angle sensor and cleaned it and all. 
 

many tips or tricks on the ES system and shifting. This is my first bike, second time out with it. Ran well, besides this uncertainty of how perhaps the system fully operates. 

 

[bcsman 1,381]

I downshift all the time with my 450ES rarely if ever use my brakes.  I find on mine it's best to let the rpm's wind down some before going down a gear, higher rpm's make it clunk alot more.  On the upshifts it's pretty much the same thing, back off on the throttle before shifting, makes it much smoother.  As far as the downshift on it's own no it should not be doing that.  I know my ES has had an issue before upshifting when it doesnt completely make it into the next gear.  It will temp show the next gear but when it realizes it isnt there the correct gear shows.  When it seems to be stuck in a gear or when the --- shows if you rock the bike a little it should fix the issue.

 

Other than that before worrying about anything else make sure the clutch is adjusted.  Very easy to do, if you don't know how ask.....

[_Wilson_™ 6,564]

and try peping the throttle when down shifting to match the engine rpm with the drivetrain speed, takes a while to learn this, but it's less of a shock to drivetrain. 

[freebo86 291]

9 hours ago, bcsman said:

I downshift all the time with my 450ES rarely if ever use my brakes.  I find on mine it's best to let the rpm's wind down some before going down a gear, higher rpm's make it clunk alot more.  On the upshifts it's pretty much the same thing, back off on the throttle before shifting, makes it much smoother.  As far as the downshift on it's own no it should not be doing that.  I know my ES has had an issue before upshifting when it doesnt completely make it into the next gear.  It will temp show the next gear but when it realizes it isnt there the correct gear shows.  When it seems to be stuck in a gear or when the --- shows if you rock the bike a little it should fix the issue.

 

Other than that before worrying about anything else make sure the clutch is adjusted.  Very easy to do, if you don't know how ask.....

thanks. I know how to adjust it it’s just that the stud itself is seized on there. The 8/10mm nut is loose but the stud won’t move. Posted about it a few posts up. Haven’t had a chance to tackle it again. 
 

When the - - shows up I assumed it was something with the angle sensor? Or am I completely off on this one?

 

9 hours ago, _Wilson_™ said:

and try peping the throttle when down shifting to match the engine rpm with the drivetrain speed, takes a while to learn this, but it's less of a shock to drivetrain. 

thanks. So rev matching basically. 

[bcsman 1,381]

@Fishfiles had a very good idea with using the double jam nuts to try to break the adjustment screw loose if you can find the thin nuts....or maybe tap the screw with a hammer?  Yes the impact would need to be done carefully....

[_Wilson_™ 6,564]

that should be posted in the mechanics trick thread, fish. 

[_Wilson_™ 6,564]

3 hours ago, freebo86 said:

thanks. So rev matching basically.

 

you got it! just the opposite of letting off the throttle to up shift. 

[freebo86 291]

On 12/29/2020 at 10:55 AM, bcsman said:

@Fishfiles had a very good idea with using the double jam nuts to try to break the adjustment screw loose if you can find the thin nuts....or maybe tap the screw with a hammer?  Yes the impact would need to be done carefully....

the double nut idea sounds great, but what wrench will work with that thin of a nut and grip both nuts at the same time?

[_Wilson_™ 6,564]

couple defrent ways, but wrenches--- a dog bone wrench would work good, just jam the nuts up  line the corners up and slip the wrench over both, another way would be jam them fairly tight, and use the inner nut to back them both out / break the stud loose, then once the adjustment screw breaks loose take two wrenches one on the main nut one one the jam , break those loose, then your set. I've used this deal many times, and it works good. 

Edited January 1, 2021 by _Wilson_™

[Fishfiles 20,145]

7 hours ago, freebo86 said:

the double nut idea sounds great, but what wrench will work with that thin of a nut and grip both nuts at the same time?

you are not going to be gripping both nuts at the same time , you are going to be tightening one against the other , very seldom when you do a double nut will they line up where both hexes land at the same spot , they will be offset a bit 

 

A " tappet " wrench is a thin wrench , less then 1/2 the thickness of a regular wrench , I doubt you would really need one , you could just grind a old wrench down if space becomes a problem , if  I didn't have a tappet wrench , I might use a pair of small needle nosed vise grips on the bottom nut , the best tool in the box is your imagination 

 

other wrenches that are thin are friction wrenches and offset hydraulic wrenches 

 

 

[freebo86 291]

Ya sorry, stupid iPhone typo. I meant to say what to use NOT to grip both nuts. Going out against today -4th time this week 🙂

 

Will get a few days of rest after this and hopefully some more tweaks and I’ll take a stab at this. 

[WonderMonkey 719]

Does anybody know if what retro has laid out is still needed for the new machines?  It's not that I'm trying to avoid this, but that's EXACTLY what I'm doing, if I don't need to do it.  If it IS still an issue, I'll certainly follow through this thread and get it done.

[_Wilson_™ 6,564]

On April 13, 2020 at 2:21 PM, retro said:

For this guide I am using a 350 Rancher ES. All other Honda ES systems are similarly assembled so these steps apply to all of them.

 

^^^^^ 1st post. 

[WonderMonkey 719]

1 hour ago, _Wilson_™ said:

 

^^^^^ 1st post. 

 

I read that, but I'm basically asking if Honda changed their ways on the new models.  If this process is taking care of inadequate assembly (or whatever) procedures, have they taken care of it?

[slowindown 494]

My 02 didn’t show shifting symptoms until this summer and about 4000 miles so it wasn’t terribly inadequate back then. 

 

My 06 still shifts fine. But I may regrease it this spring anyway when I do maintenance. 

[_Wilson_™ 6,564]

2 hours ago, WonderMonkey said:

Does anybody know if what retro has laid out is still needed for the new machines?

 

well this is what you asked, ^^^^  if your not sure, then talk to him, i don't deal with es machines any longer...... especially ranchers... but I'd say his post covers them all, if you asking if the quality of the machine is is better with newer models, I'd say no. 

[retro 4,048]

3 hours ago, WonderMonkey said:

Does anybody know if what retro has laid out is still needed for the new machines?  It's not that I'm trying to avoid this, but that's EXACTLY what I'm doing, if I don't need to do it.  If it IS still an issue, I'll certainly follow through this thread and get it done.

 

Yup, Honda still uses the same type of grease (& very little of it, thankfully) on all of the newest ES models. The newer models still have not been waterproofed at the factory either. If you use a quality NLGI #2 synthetic grease to prep them (and fully waterproof the ES system components & harness plugs) it is a one-time service that should last the lifetime of the ATV, which may be 30+ years or more depending on the owner's care & maintenance habits. If you use a conventional bearing grease to prep them you can expect to repeat your prep work every 4 or 5 years because conventional crude oil based lubes break down & decompose over time. If you use a lithium based grease like Honda uses, you'll need to repeat your prep work every 2 years... because lithium bases break down and decompose rapidly in high heat-cycled environments.

 

You can prep an ES just once.... or as many times as ya choose to. 🙂

 

This thread was created in order to help others solve ALL of Honda's ES reliability problems. None of the recommended steps & materials mentioned in the first post are optional. 🙂

[WonderMonkey 719]

20 minutes ago, retro said:

 

Yup, Honda still uses the same type of grease (& very little of it, thankfully) on all of the newest ES models. The newer models still have not been waterproofed at the factory either. If you use a quality NLGI #2 synthetic grease to prep them (and fully waterproof the ES system components & harness plugs) it is a one-time service that should last the lifetime of the ATV, which may be 30+ years or more depending on the owner's care & maintenance habits. If you use a conventional bearing grease to prep them you can expect to repeat your prep work every 4 or 5 years because conventional crude oil based lubes break down & decompose over time. If you use a lithium based grease like Honda uses, you'll need to repeat your prep work every 2 years... because lithium bases break down and decompose rapidly in high heat-cycled environments.

 

You can prep an ES just once.... or as many times as ya choose to. 🙂

 

This thread was created in order to help others solve ALL of Honda's ES reliability problems. None of the recommended steps & materials mentioned in the first post are optional. 🙂

 

Thanks.  When I bought mine at the dealership they say "They fixed the issues" so I didn't want to take things apart if I didn't have to.  I've never done this type of work so I don't want to get in there and screw things up.

 

I appreciate you taking the time to make this and other threads, and to respond to my question.  I'll get the things needed and dive in and get it done.  I'll choose a time when I have a few weeks before I ride in case I get in there and something goes wrong, whatever that could be.

[WonderMonkey 719]

1 hour ago, _Wilson_™ said:

 

well this is what you asked, ^^^^  if your not sure, then talk to him, i don't deal with es machines any longer...... especially ranchers... but I'd say his post covers them all, if you asking if the quality of the machine is is better with newer models, I'd say no. 

 

Yes I did ask it that way, didn't I?  I appreciate you responding.  Thanks.

[retro 4,048]

2 hours ago, WonderMonkey said:

I'll choose a time when I have a few weeks before I ride in case I get in there and something goes wrong, whatever that could be.

 

Start a thread when ya prep your ES so we can all follow along and learn from ya!

[WonderMonkey 719]

6 minutes ago, retro said:

 

Start a thread when ya prep your ES so we can all follow along and learn from ya!

 

HA!  Thanks for making me feel good.  I'll start a thread so that the next n00b that comes in can learn from the fact I need a wrench-by-wrench hand-holding.

[retro 4,048]

That'd be me! :-)

 

[_Wilson_™ 6,564]

14 hours ago, WonderMonkey said:

 

Yes I did ask it that way, didn't I?  I appreciate you responding.  Thanks.

 

no prob :-)