87Iroc 344 Posted July 15, 2020 There’s the rod. I think it’s pic was elsewhere in first thread but I did check for bent around one point. It looked ok Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shadetree 5,864 Posted July 16, 2020 i hate to tell you this, but you need to tear it all back down, start over. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
87Iroc 344 Posted July 16, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, shadetree said: i hate to tell you this, but you need to tear it all back down, start over. I'm gathering that. Just when I thought I was getting close.... The engine is in there but only the bear minimum. It'll only be the 3rd time I've pulled it. Edited July 16, 2020 by 87Iroc Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
87Iroc 344 Posted July 16, 2020 Could I have adjusted the valves wrong? It sounds awful harsh for valves....but just throwing out a less painful idea. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shadetree 5,864 Posted July 16, 2020 16 hours ago, 87Iroc said: Could I have adjusted the valves wrong? It sounds awful harsh for valves....but just throwing out a less painful idea. you deff got something wrong on this motor !!. i don't know what all it is ?, but what i do know is: IT'S NOT RIGHT !..LOL. i listened to the video, that has to be one of the worst engines i have ever heard lately that sounds like you dropped a bag of marbles down into !!!..lol. you still have my number ?, we need to go back over a few things for sure !..lol. these motors are very simple, IF YOU PUT THEM BACK TOGETHER CORRECTLY ?!!..LOL. its almost dummy proof to mess this engine up ?, but it can be done !. sooooo, with that said, me and you need to start from scratch, and see where you messed up ?. i can't be your eyes on here or the phone ?, but i can tell you how and what to look for, how it goes back together !. if you can't do it ?..then like i said..load that puppy up, all parts, drive down here, we'll have it apart, back together, and running like new when you head back home with it. THAT IS !..IF YOU DO NOT NEED ANY OTHER PARTS ?. but i do know i can fix it, your only cost is gas here and back, and maybe an 18 pack of cold brew ?, where else you gonna get that kinda price ??..lol. 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
87Iroc 344 Posted July 16, 2020 (edited) Yep. still have your number. I will give you a call after a bit more investigation. Appreciate you guys help. I am currently trying to sort the location of noise out Edited July 16, 2020 by 87Iroc 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shadetree 5,864 Posted July 16, 2020 6 minutes ago, 87Iroc said: Yep. still have your number. I will give you a call after a bit more investigation. Appreciate you guys help. I am currently trying to sort the location of noise out. Right now I am leaning toward under rear cover as noise is more crisp a feel from rear with my hand on housing and using screwdriver stethoscope. feeling and listening to what and where the noise is..wont get you anywhere !. this is a case of ripping it all back apart ( no..you do not need to pull the motor..again...yet ?! ), going through each section at a time to see what damage is where ?, what part is bad, not right ?. you can listen all you want ?, but this does not always work !!. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bcsman 1,382 Posted July 16, 2020 Where in the world are you gonna get a better deal than having Shade get her back running the way it needs for very little cost. There aren't many out there that will do that, but that's the way Shade treats the members here........I was hew here and he and retro spent much time on the phone and the old forum to get my 450 running like a top. And trust me if I had tackled the job by myself it would still be apart or somehow chugging along on 1/2 cylinder....lol 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
87Iroc 344 Posted July 17, 2020 (edited) Talked to shade. Off hand comment and I realize oil filter is backwards. Totally not intuitive. See if I did much damage but yes. I appreciate all the help and I hope I don’t wind up loading up for a drive to Arkansas but if I have to. I get three day weekends at work right now. Have family around hot springs. . Not sure the oil filter flipped will fix knocking but will see. Gonna check a couple things then put it back together and see if anything changes. Valves appeared too loose too Edited July 17, 2020 by 87Iroc 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
spock 42 Posted July 17, 2020 Holy Moly! Hope it works out ok, we're rooting for you! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bcsman 1,382 Posted July 17, 2020 Unfortunately it isn't a hard thing to do 87, that's why it is mentioned here on the forum quite abit. After I changed my oil on my 450 the first time I started it up and realized I forgot to add oil.....thankfully only ran for a few seconds, but sometimes when doing maintenance you are thinking of other things and get distracted..... 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shadetree 5,864 Posted July 17, 2020 2 hours ago, 87Iroc said: Talked to shade. Off hand comment and I realize oil filter is backwards. Totally not intuitive. See if I did much damage but yes. I appreciate all the help and I hope I don’t wind up loading up for a drive to Arkansas but if I have to. I get three day weekends at work right now. Have family around hot springs. . Not sure the oil filter flipped will fix knocking but will see. Gonna check a couple things then put it back together and see if anything changes. Valves appeared too loose too family in hot springs ?, thats not far from me !. if ya fail to get it right ?, bring it down, we'll fix it, head over to hot springs, we can take my jet ski for a ride !. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
87Iroc 344 Posted July 19, 2020 (edited) On 7/16/2020 at 10:58 PM, shadetree said: family in hot springs ?, thats not far from me !. if ya fail to get it right ?, bring it down, we'll fix it, head over to hot springs, we can take my jet ski for a ride !. My dad's family has deep roots around Hot Springs. My grandma is buried there....but rest of family is scattered now other than a few of my dad's cousins I met at Grandma's funeral in 1984. Many of my grandma's nieces and nephews never ventured far from Hot Springs....and if they did, they moved back home in retirement. A slight update. 1) Oil Filter was a false alarm. When I pulled the one there, I had done it right. Phew. 2) Starter is toast...so dead in the water until I get a new one plus going out of town for a few days. Will mess with it when I get back and start checking timing/etc then. Edited July 19, 2020 by 87Iroc Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shadetree 5,864 Posted July 19, 2020 15 hours ago, 87Iroc said: My dad's family has deep roots around Hot Springs. My grandma is buried there....but rest of family is scattered now other than a few of my dad's cousins I met at Grandma's funeral in 1984. Many of my grandma's nieces and nephews never ventured far from Hot Springs....and if they did, they moved back home in retirement. A slight update. 1) Oil Filter was a false alarm. When I pulled the one there, I had done it right. Phew. 2) Starter is toast...so dead in the water until I get a new one plus going out of town for a few days. Will mess with it when I get back and start checking timing/etc then. good deal, keep us updated on what ever you discover ?!. any questions ?..ASK !!, we'll be more than happy to answer :-). 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
87Iroc 344 Posted July 22, 2020 Greetings. Back from long weekend. Got new starter installed and it cranks over fine. Got it started once now it won’t even try to hit but spark is there. Regardless I need to run thru timing checks discussed with Shadetree before I get back to it idling crappy. one thing I have not mentioned. It is a ! to pull start. It will flat kick my butt trying to pull start it. Catches hard on compression stroke. I tried with and without decompressor engaged. Pull plug and it spins like a top. Possibly this is normal And I am a weakling but both previous owner and I note it’s probably not pull startable by a Japanese engineer. i also noticed marks on od of flywheel I don’t recall being there before. I am going to pull front cover and head and check rod clearance as well as timing setup again. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fishfiles 20,145 Posted July 22, 2020 It is very hard to pull start , it will hurt your arm , but can be done in an emergency , I have done it before , I pull it over easy just a little bit at a time , like 1/2 pull and find the sweet spot Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
87Iroc 344 Posted July 22, 2020 18 minutes ago, Fishfiles said: It is very hard to pull start , it will hurt your arm , but can be done in an emergency , I have done it before , I pull it over easy just a little bit at a time , like 1/2 pull and find the sweet spot ok. Good info. Always have a good battery and starter. Check! I suspect whenever I get it running right I will begin to understand how it should start. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
87Iroc 344 Posted July 22, 2020 All 3 timing marks line up. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
87Iroc 344 Posted July 23, 2020 (edited) Timing checked. Piston position at tdc looks ok. I pulled rear cover(stator cover) off to check any oddities back there. I will say as I spin it I feel it get harder as piston comes up bore. Not at tdc or bdc changeover. Just partway up. Both directions but coming up bore it’s a bit harder. gonna pull jug in a sec. Edited July 23, 2020 by 87Iroc Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
87Iroc 344 Posted July 23, 2020 (edited) With jug pulled it becomes a very smooth engine. Not a sign of any issues. As a reminder the bore was bored out to 0.25 by G&H a month ago. Could just be rings working hatching. Check end gaps either tomorrow or this weekend Edited July 23, 2020 by 87Iroc Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bcsman 1,382 Posted July 23, 2020 Trying to remember last year when my 450 was bored also, but believe the piston was sent to the shop that bored the cylinder for proper fitting. You didn't say but was this the case with your situation? If the bore job was done correctly would think the only way you would have any resisitance mid stroke would be rings. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
87Iroc 344 Posted July 23, 2020 (edited) 24 minutes ago, bcsman said: Trying to remember last year when my 450 was bored also, but believe the piston was sent to the shop that bored the cylinder for proper fitting. You didn't say but was this the case with your situation? If the bore job was done correctly would think the only way you would have any resisitance mid stroke would be rings. Yah, I just bought G&H's kit for like 180 on their website. Shipped them the jug....they gave me a gasket set and rings along with the piston/pin... Edited July 23, 2020 by 87Iroc Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
87Iroc 344 Posted July 23, 2020 So talked to Shadetree. He said to be sure to check the rod in both directions for straightness. I don't see anything that would indicate a bend when looking at it. I layed a flat 6" ruler across the pin face and it hits at the big end in the same spot on both sides by my calibrated eye. The catching in the bore ain't right though according to him. Should be smooth as silk even with new rings. Going to pull rings tonight and check end gaps up and down the bore to get a rough idea if the bore is bored straight or not. I can't imagine its not but that's really the only thing besides a slightly bent rod that would cause the piston to get hard to move up and down the bore with the jug in place. I have checked the rod and tried to move it back and forth and its solid as a rock down on the crankshaft too.No odd big end play. Question on flywheel removal as I'm thinking of pulling it to check it out due to the marks on the outside. I have the pulling tool. Do I just put the puller in the flywheel and hit it with an impact to remove? I saw one crank on ebay with a puller stuck in it...so wanted to be sure there wasn't a better way to pull it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jeepwm69 7,605 Posted July 23, 2020 Yeah, just start the puller by hand and then run it on with an impact. Should come right off. I had a 420 that had a tweaked rod. No up/down play. Looked straight. Wrist pin to rod was tight, but I could feel a drag when I turned it over by hand. It ran and actually ran well, but wouldn't stop smoking. I finally put a new crank in it and after that it worked great, no smoke. I did end up selling that one at a loss though after all I had to put into it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
87Iroc 344 Posted July 23, 2020 3 minutes ago, jeepwm69 said: Yeah, just start the puller by hand and then run it on with an impact. Should come right off. I had a 420 that had a tweaked rod. No up/down play. Looked straight. Wrist pin to rod was tight, but I could feel a drag when I turned it over by hand. It ran and actually ran well, but wouldn't stop smoking. I finally put a new crank in it and after that it worked great, no smoke. I did end up selling that one at a loss though after all I had to put into it. Thanks for the info. I plan to spin the engine over more tonight and feel for a bit of a drag in teh rod. I don't really feel anything but am going to try to really feel for it. It feels smooth right now but maybe there's a bit of drag I haven't honed in to yet. If mine is bent, its very slight. It won't run either would wouldn't match what yours did. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
