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87Iroc

98 Foreman 450S....Still not found issue

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1 hour ago, Fishfiles said:

Jeep , is this 87Iroc guy ok ?   Giving all our secrets , eh.  Lol.

 

i might have one that is in good shape.  

 

Honestly PSN has gone up quite a bit on their stuff over the last few months.  Not much in the way of bargains anymore, but at least you know they'll stand behind what they sell.

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Just sat down and inspected every bushing in trans and measured them.  All in Honda spec(found typo in manual) and none showed signs of debris.  
 

also got the new bearings I have on hand installed.  Rear output shaft bearing slips out if bumped just right.  Figure that’s normal in output shaft.  
 

any tips on removing rear needle bearing on shift drum? I accidentally ordered it.  Might as well install it
 

Here’s new vs old pic.  Some have shiny bearing separators.  Some have dull.  This is dull

146CCE9B-E2D9-4F02-812E-B6BD97CAB1F2.jpeg

Edited by 87Iroc

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1 hour ago, 87Iroc said:

Just sat down and inspected every bushing in trans and measured them.  All in Honda spec(found typo in manual) and none showed signs of debris.  
 

also got the new bearings I have on hand installed.  Rear output shaft bearing slips out if bumped just right.  Figure that’s normal in output shaft.  
 

any tips on removing rear needle bearing on shift drum? I accidentally ordered it.  Might as well install it
 

Here’s new vs old pic.  Some have shiny bearing separators.  Some have dull.  This is dull

146CCE9B-E2D9-4F02-812E-B6BD97CAB1F2.jpeg

blind bearing puller to get the shift drum needle bearing out.

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13 minutes ago, shadetree said:

blind bearing puller to get the shift drum needle bearing out.

 

I'll give it a try. There's not much sticking inside the bore....but I do have an arbor that would work.

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Quick update. 

 

Crank is back. Came in yesterday. Looks great. Heated crank rear bearing up to 215 in the oven and it dropped right on and almost immediately shrunk to crank. Was pretty awesome(we do this with crank hubs at work but heat them to 450). I did confirm the timing marks before I did this and marked the gear so I could see it after assy.

 

 

2 of the 3 bearings I ordered from local powersports place came in. Same price as RockyMountain and much to my delight they are Honda bearings. Last one will be here this week, but as its nose on main shaft, I can get case halves together before I install it.

 

I am replacing one bushing on main shaft(one that is under the circlipped gear as it felt odd, but measured fine). This is in the mail today.

 

Other than that, I'm approaching ready to re-assemble this beast. Would like to get 2 halves together before end of weekend so I know its back together before I forget how it works. 

 

Any suggestions on getting the rear main back in the case? Tap on it? Honda shows a tool of some sort to pull it in. I also thought about hitting the case with my propane torch for a few seconds to open up the press. Worked shockingly well on the front bearing.

 

other than that plan to have the service manual pages open to look at the 'stack' to make sure I haven't swapped any orders on anything as I've gone through each shaft about 4 times inspecting stuff. I must say I was pleasantly surprised how well Honda documents how the shafts stack together.

 

Thanks

Edited by 87Iroc

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rear main crank bearing ?, i just hammer them down in the case. oil the case where it goes, then oil the outside of the bearing, hammer that puppy down in the case, go slow, hit evenly around the outer bearing race, it should go right down in there.

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I press the bearing into the case, then press the crank into the bearing.  Pics here

 

 

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Looks believable.  Checked each stack 2-3 times.    I took about 10 pics as it went together to ensure i had reference if there was an issue. 
 

all oil holes are lined up.  Thrust washers oriented right to best of my knowledge.  Gap in circlip lined up With groove in spline.  Reverse gear thick washer in rear.BF240F1D-CDE8-4FA7-BC52-1040D59727BF.jpeg

4A09005D-E70A-408A-87A9-8B8565DFC4EE.jpeg

8C958DDE-15E5-4747-96FA-04380EBD0554.jpeg

Edited by 87Iroc

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Holy crap.  Placed an order with Rocky Mountain at 630 pm yesterday.  Showed up 11 am today.  
 

gettibg ready to button cases back up.  
 

the one pic is my adapted small block damper installer using old bearings.  Rod caught on case for a sec but other than that once it got square it pulled in smooth. Already had bearing on and couldn’t get to anything to tap on On lower web from top so used puller. 

5149604D-C141-4060-9726-9420532AA4C4.jpeg

A7CA3081-BB4A-4501-A110-E8AEBD7E382F.jpeg

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5 hours ago, 87Iroc said:

Holy crap.  Placed an order with Rocky Mountain at 630 pm yesterday.  Showed up 11 am today.  
 

gettibg ready to button cases back up.  
 

the one pic is my adapted small block damper installer using old bearings.  Rod caught on case for a sec but other than that once it got square it pulled in smooth. Already had bearing on and couldn’t get to anything to tap on On lower web from top so used puller. 

5149604D-C141-4060-9726-9420532AA4C4.jpeg

A7CA3081-BB4A-4501-A110-E8AEBD7E382F.jpeg

haha..did i not warn you about the rod hitting the case half when going back together this morning ??!!..lol.

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2 hours ago, shadetree said:

haha..did i not warn you about the rod hitting the case half when going back together this morning ??!!..lol.


lol.  That happened before you warned me!!! I listen! Just didn’t call soon enough. 

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4 hours ago, 87Iroc said:


lol.  That happened before you warned me!!! I listen! Just didn’t call soon enough. 

lol..i told you this, this morning...cuz this guy has been there..done that !..lol.

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87 , inside that engine is looking might clean !!!!   This thing might run !!!!  Pulling for you , LOL 

 

Galvanized sleeve , reducing bushing , what looks like 3 bearings , 2 washers and a bolt , got to be a first !!! Imagination is the best tool in the box .... 

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27 minutes ago, Fishfiles said:

87 , inside that engine is looking might clean !!!!   This thing might run !!!!  Pulling for you , LOL 

 

Galvanized sleeve , reducing bushing , what looks like 3 bearings , 2 washers and a bolt , got to be a first !!! Imagination is the best tool in the box .... 

 

thanks.  I’m hoping.  
 

I use all thread on the nose of car cranks but used the pull start cog bolt here. It was too long hence stacked bearings   With all thread it would essentially be what’s shown in Honda manual.  it’s not good to load threads like that but after it started pulling in you could spin the ratchet with a couple fingers.  
 

two case halves are together.  Clymers manual mentioned a gear shift test so I ran it thru gears.  They all mesh up fine including reverse. Shaking tranny shaft still results in some noise but not near as bad.  I get a noise spinning crank and balance but appears to be coming from gear mesh.  It quiets down some with oil squirted on gears.  
 

I ran in to a part I needed under front cover last night due to a mistake I made so it didn’t go back in yesterday.  I am going to put together what I can today then wait on parts.  

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i think you are doing a wonderful job on this build !, you've gone at it with every intention of not only doing it yourself ?, but doing it right !. get-r-done !.

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Thanks.  Other than my inability to think in Nm for torque it’s going back together well. 
 

No noise this time with stator cover back in place.  Ready to set timing up front. 

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27 minutes ago, 87Iroc said:

Thanks.  Other than my inability to think in Nm torque  


The only two things I use the torque wrench for is the head bolts and swing arm bolts.  Be careful with that torque wrench , read and hear of a lot of threads getting pulled out that soft aluminum with  torque wrenches 

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2 hours ago, Fishfiles said:


The only two things I use the torque wrench for is the head bolts and swing arm bolts.  Be careful with that torque wrench , read and hear of a lot of threads getting pulled out that soft aluminum with  torque wrenches 


this is sage advice.  I kept setting Nm torques on the Ft-lb side. It’s like a mental block. 

Edited by 87Iroc

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4 minutes ago, 87Iroc said:


this is sage advice.  I kept setting Nm torques on the Ft-lb side. It’s like a mental block. 

we'll make an atv mechanic out of you yet !...lol.

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4 hours ago, shadetree said:

we'll make an atv mechanic out of you yet !...lol.

 

I have officially quit using the torque wrench. Will pick it up again when I get to head acorn nut things.Beyond that it was nerve wracking even achieving the minimal torque they take.

 

 

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As an update today.
 

Got the jug on it.  Thankfully remembered chain tensioner before I went too far. Getting jug over rings was a pain this time.  Timing is set too and I took pics of all three timing marks lined up.  
 

now the problem.  If you recall 42 pages ago on the tear down end of this I mentioned the piston catches in bore about an inch from top?   
 

still does it.  
 

I believe I checked it without rings and it was fine.  Gotta go back and reread.  I know I used end gaps to judge bore dia and it checked ok I believe as being cylindrical.  I don’t have an accurate enough bore gauge to measure it.  
 

the jug only has the 2 outer bolts on it.  Haven’t put head on it yet.  

 

Talked to Shadetree and he said to pull the jug and put the rings in to the bore and look for light around them. I'm going to do that one night this week. The jug boring work was done by G&H. 

 

Only 5 pages ago...but I did the check. Remove the rings and the piston goes up/down easy. 

 

Quote

Piston going up and down bore without rings does it fine.  You can hear some rubbing on downstroke of piston but figure that would be normal.  It does make that sound though about same place as the crank gets hard to turn with rings on it but only on downstroke not both. 

 

Edited by 87Iroc

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Took a long lunch today and put the head/rockers on it with a old head gasket(I have a collection, thinking Xmas ornaments). Anyway, ran the acorn nuts down with my cordless impact to snug them up. Seemed better for a bit then started binding again. I squired oil down in the bore and it ran smooth a few strokes until oil disappeared them it started binding again.

 

I then pulled jug off. Took rings off piston. Checked every ring approximately where it would be when binding. All showed plenty of end gap(top ring was above 0.015"...I didn't get anal about the measurement there just made sure it was above spec. I also checked for light around the piston ring indicating a weird 'warble' to the honing. It all looked OK.

 

I ran piston up/down bore with just the oil ring. It really wouldn't go very well. I then put all 3 rings on it and it went up and down, but not easy. 

 

My take on it is I may be overthinking it. 

 

I got a call back from G&H as well. I talked to him about 10 minutes. He was brainstorming with me and said if it did it before and seems 'worse' now...it really wouldn't be the rod which is what he was pointing at initially. He said their tooling/honing is 'autogaged' and wouldn't be able to make the bore do what I was thinking(wavy finish). Said it would do it all up and down bore. Said since it runs smooth w/o the rings, its not piston clearance(Said it would be about .002" on this type of thing) and that only way rings would cause such a thing is if it was end gap butting(which its not).

 

His suggestion was to put it together and w/o the spark plug in the hole to crank it over and see how it cranks. If it cranks fine he thinks any 'binding' may just be bearings that need to wear in a bit since its all brand new. 

 

He also said the rings should be fine even though I've been roughly running it since I got it done by them. 

 

So unless you guys have any suggestions, I'm going to just keep plugging away at putting it together and see if I'm just overthinking it or not when I try to crank it over.

Edited by 87Iroc
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1 hour ago, 87Iroc said:

Took a long lunch today and put the head/rockers on it with a old head gasket(I have a collection, thinking Xmas ornaments). Anyway, ran the acorn nuts down with my cordless impact to snug them up. Seemed better for a bit then started binding again. I squired oil down in the bore and it ran smooth a few strokes until oil disappeared them it started binding again.

 

I then pulled jug off. Took rings off piston. Checked every ring approximately where it would be when binding. All showed plenty of end gap(top ring was above 0.015"...I didn't get anal about the measurement there just made sure it was above spec. I also checked for light around the piston ring indicating a weird 'warble' to the honing. It all looked OK.

 

I ran piston up/down bore with just the oil ring. It really wouldn't go very well. I then put all 3 rings on it and it went up and down, but not easy. 

 

My take on it is I may be overthinking it. 

 

I got a call back from G&H as well. I talked to him about 10 minutes. He was brainstorming with me and said if it did it before and seems 'worse' now...it really wouldn't be the rod which is what he was pointing at initially. He said their tooling/honing is 'autogaged' and wouldn't be able to make the bore do what I was thinking(wavy finish). Said it would do it all up and down bore. Said since it runs smooth w/o the rings, its not piston clearance(Said it would be about .002" on this type of thing) and that only way rings would cause such a thing is if it was end gap butting(which its not).

 

His suggestion was to put it together and w/o the spark plug in the hole to crank it over and see how it cranks. If it cranks fine he thinks any 'binding' may just be bearings that need to wear in a bit since its all brand new. 

 

He also said the rings should be fine even though I've been roughly running it since I got it done by them. 

 

So unless you guys have any suggestions, I'm going to just keep plugging away at putting it together and see if I'm just overthinking it or not when I try to crank it over.

put it together, it will run..or it wont run, simple as that. just remember !!, you may still need to go over your carb to make sure its ok ?. dont run it hard and heavy for a few miles, give the rings time to '' seat '' in the cylinder.

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1 hour ago, shadetree said:

put it together, it will run..or it wont run, simple as that. just remember !!, you may still need to go over your carb to make sure its ok ?. dont run it hard and heavy for a few miles, give the rings time to '' seat '' in the cylinder.

 

aye aye cap'n. 

 

I hope I have the option of running it hard and heavy and choose not too. So far, its been 'will it start? How long will it idle before it dies'....

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You mentioned over thinking , makes me think of " making a mountain out a mole hill " ----- now take my wife , I wonder  if any thinking really goes on up there between her ears ,  I call her wishy-washy , cause she can't make up her mind and stick with it ----  the now times  new way is go with your first thought and Send It  

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