98 Foreman 450S....Still not found issue

[shadetree 5,864]

if the rod is good ?, then the only thing left is the bore is not straight. you do not have to pull the flywheel just to see if its hitting anything ?, just pull the cover, then spin it over with the cylinder on, see if it still binds up ?. one thing that comes to mind. when you are spinning it over by hand with the cylinder on, you do know the cylinder wont be straight until the top end is all bolted on...right ?. in other words, the piston will not track straight in the cylinder until its all bolted up. still, the piston still should run up and down in the cylinder very easy without binding up !. this leaves me to think g&h did not bore the cylinder straight ?, or the rod is bent ?.

[87Iroc 344]

Just pulled flywheel off. It popped right off. One way bearing look good as does the needle bearing behind it. I was looking at it to determine if I had contact anywhere back there. I'd say, even if not today, I have had contact, though(considering pickup sensor is new, I'd say the contact is since its been put back together). The leading edge of the pickup on the flywheel has a 'whammy' on it where it hit something. There are marks on the outside even with the timing hole...but nothing should be hitting there. No marks anywhere else. The pickup sensor, which was new last winter as my friend tried to fix it, has some indication that that has come in contact with something too. The old one I have from him, shows pristine. I have a 2nd flywheel I picked up cheap off ebay right after I bought this. It doesn't show any marks on the outside and it doesn't have any contact showing anywhere. 

 

Hopefully you can see what I'm talking about here. Best i could get my phone to do.

 

 

[87Iroc 344]

Rings are above Honda spec by .003-.004” for end gap but are consistent down bore within my measurement capability.  Took 4 measurements for each ring
 

 

Edited July 23, 2020 by 87Iroc

[87Iroc 344]

Play by play.  Shadetree asked me with the pics of pickup coil to check if you can feel contact when it goes by the weight on flywheel.  You can if you’re feeling for it.  And you can hear it. 
 

Also with stator cover off.  There’s still a drag on the cylinder as the piston comes up the bore. So that contact is not what I’m feeling. 

Edited July 24, 2020 by 87Iroc

[shadetree 5,864]

1 hour ago, 87Iroc said:

Play by play.  Shadetree asked me with the pics of pickup coil to check if you can feel contact when it goes by the weight on flywheel.  You can if you’re feeling for it.  And you can hear it. 
 

Also with stator cover off.  There’s still a drag on the cylinder as the piston comes up the bore. So that contact is not what I’m feeling. 

all i see was you turning the puller cage back and forth ?, that does not show us what binding is taking place.

[Fishfiles 20,145]

You know the 450 stator and flywheel part numbers are different 98-2001 and 2002-2004 , might all be the same , you never know what the P.O. done ---- end of the crank could be bent 

[87Iroc 344]

24 minutes ago, shadetree said:

all i see was you turning the puller cage back and forth ?, that does not show us what binding is taking place.

 

That sound you hear is the pickup coil hitting the flywheel. I need to take a video of where its binding tomorrow.

[87Iroc 344]

19 minutes ago, Fishfiles said:

You know the 4500 stator and flywheel part numbers are different 98-2001 and 2002-2004 , might all be the same , you never know what the P.O. done ---- end of the crank could be bent 

 

 

I will do some research. Thanks for the heads up. I don't know how the end of the crank could be bent, but the thought had crossed my mind. Wish there was some metal on this engine I could put my dial indicator to to check the runout of the crank end.

 

The bearings all seem tight. I've tried a bunch of times to move them side to side with no sign of slop

Edited July 24, 2020 by 87Iroc

[shadetree 5,864]

8 hours ago, 87Iroc said:

 

That sound you hear is the pickup coil hitting the flywheel. I need to take a video of where its binding tomorrow.

then your crank is bent.

[shadetree 5,864]

i found this on ebay, not a bad price, power sports nation does not show any used cranks for any 400-450 at all that i seen ?. ---> https://www.ebay.com/itm/2001-HONDA-TRX450ES-TRX-450es-Crankshaft-Crank/362277918852?epid=1028509720&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item5459725884:g:O5EAAOSwGGlatU0Q&enc=AQAFAAACcBaobrjLl8XobRIiIML1V4Imu%2Fn%2BzU5L90Z278x5ickkBSh1VzQSTzkTiSV5EE%2FHQT6FHSv%2F1MNSdknffgUev2SVWmJ%2BExeew4GKJRynWID0Hk9KG%2BJ7T5U1fCniFsAaV5M7byvk6EqZggoazQrFXDUM7F6icT8B4%2BfhP2DYaf%2FbrNx5%2BjDJHbiC%2FORN%2FNgw4YphRJ9QZDjYUd9fRkIkowk6jud1nXiFzb8ogibabsseE%2Bkh6j0z%2FhPw28x%2F34NVQn90q8b9fvvflVPI0PtMu8Ff8ZUsTZLLqfOvAeBQr05C%2BhvsxamwxL1Kh72eYrwdiRI6vhcPPep%2BTDfqBvnMvcSZypYCdJfnWRBO%2FZNYvYgiQNkmgZYCt7eHeqCMGQr1whTkY2gM%2Fl7NRaB93w%2FwIuFnfB0fqL0%2BJXCgqBacXJo6OUJYWhZiN%2FHbDBISyRt0ZBEEjCfhKN5JOD7SNBl4%2Btal44fTe8TtrXmpiasv%2BNl0I47MWmlOFM6sftyG%2BQYDwGeN96ikrfFwN1s%2FABIKqqtM0ioLqigmbvMkS%2BtHvy%2BOzrI%2BjmWpLfdbWkWTSUV69m18KyfXAfxpiXe31JRxUiePJwm41IXFh7Q7hM4WU0M0FHFuTfiHIvfjoJi183GlpFmUsZYYG%2BKg0QqkgkHqDN%2Bu7x9dzD%2FgjXTpJryDSo4OjIxbW70DTKJlQgymGmncSIzKhqaQPV6gJOF%2BcJ9L%2B9ZDYpANgZiO6pacj8Y1pmoswBd2U5qAygTAvz6izCRfW7tnTplmgeGC8iNpMsta2snUbcQrM6oXMUTMyK%2B3obuH91tlbt6GyMGsRncXY6JYnQ%3D%3D&checksum=362277918852bb3d4e716e564a029103762d442155bf.

[Fishfiles 20,145]

8 hours ago, 87Iroc said:

 

 Thanks for the heads up. I don't know how the end of the crank could be bent, but the thought had crossed my mind. Wish there was some metal on this engine I could put my dial indicator to to check the runout of the crank end.

 

Strap a plate to the engine with a ratchet strap.  Put the magnetic dial indicator on the plate.  Or take the magnet off and go with a clamp.  

[Fishfiles 20,145]

The previous owner could have used a hammer and beat on the head of the bolt at end of the shaft while trying to get the flywheel off with a pry bar.  Never know what could have gone on. 

[Fishfiles 20,145]

When you are dealing with something someone else owned and worked on , you got to think out of the box , you have no idea what the P.O.  done along the way --------  I don't know if the 1st and second gen 450 stators are different or not , (they don't look different in pics ) , I have both gens , have ever looked at them side by side , they do carry different part numbers --------   I do know the 300s have two stator/flywheel set ups  and they have to be changed as a set ( flywheel and stator ) , I just went thru that personally 

[87Iroc 344]

Thanks guys.  I will investigate more on crank straightness.  Good idea on metal plate.  See what I have in garage. 
 

I am also gonna put the old pickup back on to see if it hits.  I am wondering if I bent pickup at some point.  I will get a new one on order. 

 

[Fishfiles 20,145]

I remember you saying the bearings were good.   Are they really good ?  A bad bearing could be causing your scrapping 

[jeepwm69 7,605]

If your crank is bent you'll have to replace.  If it's just the rod you can use this https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vesrah-Connecting-Rod-Kit-VA-1017/193563794115?epid=209919986&hash=item2d114d1ac3:g:osIAAOSwD0dfCEIR

 

and send to Vince at Mr Crankshaft.  He'll rebuild, true, and ship back to you.  Turnaround time is usually under a week for me.  Cheaper than buying a used crank, and you'll know it's ready to go when he's through with it.

 

With the time you're investing in this, I'll pull the crank and send it to him.  Then you KNOW it's good.

 

If someone sank this wheeler, hydrolocked the engine, it can tweak the con rod. 

 

You can call Vince.  He's a nice guy, very knowledgeable.  He might be able to tell you if there's a way to check your rod to see if it's true. http://www.mrcrankshaft.com/#honda

 

[87Iroc 344]

there’s a all encompassing video.  I have about .003” runout on OD of flywheel except right at weight for pickup coil(Heating of spot welding would minorly deform that area).  I don’t think crank is bent.  At least not rear.  I am talking in video and you can see me mention hopefully of where crank gets a bit harder to spin.  
 

thing is when I had it apart initially after I bought it it spun over fine before I had it bored out.  Possible piston had wore its own clearance or something and now with new piston/rings/bore it’s catching

 

I only say bearings are good as I feel no slop...but under load could be where they are letting crank move.  
 

I am going to remove indicator and put old pickup coil back on. I am wondering if new one got bent on my removal yesterday. It was very hard to get off.  It was hitting but if old one doesn’t hit it could be sign I bent it or prior owner did on install. 

Edited July 24, 2020 by 87Iroc

[Fishfiles 20,145]

in the video I couldn't see how and where you have the indicator resting , or even read the gauge with my bad eyes , looks to me like if you add the counter clockwise and clockwise deflections your around .010 ---- I think I would take the flywheel off and measure  right off the shaft , maybe it is the flywheel that's wacked out 

[Fishfiles 20,145]

I might take the rings off the piston and let the piston go up and down in the bore , see if it still binds and is the piston is pulling to one side or is it  even all the way around the bore from top to bottom 

[87Iroc 344]

Just now, Fishfiles said:

in the video I couldn't see how and where you have the indicator resting , or even read the gauge with my bad eyes , looks to me like if you add the counter clockwise and clockwise deflections your around .010 ---- I think I would take the flywheel off and measure  right off the shaft , maybe it is the flywheel that's wacked out 

 

 

Yep, Good Call. 

 

I'm going to attempt that here at some point later today....I just did what I could quick. I will try to flip it around and get inside there with it.

 

It had about .010 if you counted where the weight was...w/o the weight area it was .003". 

[87Iroc 344]

1 minute ago, Fishfiles said:

I might take the rings off the piston and let the piston go up and down in the bore , see if it still binds and is the piston is pulling to one side or is it  even all the way around the bore from top to bottom 

 

I will do that too. 

[87Iroc 344]

1 hour ago, jeepwm69 said:

If your crank is bent you'll have to replace.  If it's just the rod you can use this https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vesrah-Connecting-Rod-Kit-VA-1017/193563794115?epid=209919986&hash=item2d114d1ac3:g:osIAAOSwD0dfCEIR

 

and send to Vince at Mr Crankshaft.  He'll rebuild, true, and ship back to you.  Turnaround time is usually under a week for me.  Cheaper than buying a used crank, and you'll know it's ready to go when he's through with it.

 

With the time you're investing in this, I'll pull the crank and send it to him.  Then you KNOW it's good.

 

If someone sank this wheeler, hydrolocked the engine, it can tweak the con rod. 

 

You can call Vince.  He's a nice guy, very knowledgeable.  He might be able to tell you if there's a way to check your rod to see if it's true. http://www.mrcrankshaft.com/#honda

 

 

I had emailed him a week or so ago just inquiring. I asked him another question today and he asked me to call him. Very nice guy that asked for background on crank and gave me all sorts of ideas on things to check to try to determine if rod bearing is shot as well as if crank is bent. I have his list as well as one here.

 

Will update when I get back to it.

 

His quote to me, with shipping to Indiana was 250 for putting new rod on the crank. Have to weigh using him vs used...but for knowing its right, if I determine its not bent, he is a definite option.

Edited July 24, 2020 by 87Iroc

[jeepwm69 7,605]

1 hour ago, 87Iroc said:

 

I had emailed him a week or so ago just inquiring. I asked him another question today and he asked me to call him. Very nice guy that asked for background on crank and gave me all sorts of ideas on things to check to try to determine if rod bearing is shot as well as if crank is bent. I have his list as well as one here.

 

Will update when I get back to it.

 

His quote to me, with shipping to Indiana was 250 for putting new rod on the crank. Have to weigh using him vs used...but for knowing its right, if I determine its not bent, he is a definite option.

He is a phone guy over email, and I've found a lot of guys who are good at what they do would rather talk for a minute on the phone that spend all day responding to emails.

 

He doesn't mind you supplying your own rod, and he claims the vesrah rods are better than the OEM Honda rods at oiling and heat dissipation.  Wouldn't save you much supplying your own rod, but would save you a little, and you'd know it was right when you got it back.

 

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ves-va-1017?seid=srese2&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Brands+|+V&utm_term=4582283430051992&utm_content=GSAPI+5ba290cf3fbf6

 

 

 

 

[87Iroc 344]

Checked crank runout on crank tail.   .001” near as I can tell at tip.  Maybe .0015.
Screwed up though.  Pulled 2nd cover off back to get at it with my indicator and gear shift shaft came with cover.  Crap.  Well.  Ran it back thru and seems ok.  
 

Piston going up and down bore without rings does it fine.  You can hear some rubbing on downstroke of piston but figure that would be normal.  It does make that sound though about same place as the crank gets hard to turn with rings on it but only on downstroke not both. 
 

I put old pickup sensor is on and no hitting.  Think pickup sensor got bent at some point and caused hitting of flywheel.  

Edited July 24, 2020 by 87Iroc

[87Iroc 344]

Pile of parts is impressive.