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Fishfiles

Electric bicycle converted to 2 stroke gas

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i thought it had a brake handle on the right, and left, i must have missed that photo, i was thinking chrome wrap, (up to each hose clamp) to closely match the metal intake pipe, i think that would look good. 

Edited by _Wilson_™
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58 minutes ago, Fishfiles said:

I did a couple of laps around the neighborhood late yesterday , which each time around is exactly  1 mile ----   braking is fair to midland  , except learning to brake is a trip , both the front and rear brakes are on the right hand , but so is the throttle , so when you grab the brake lever you are putting pressure on the throttle which is very easy to turn , so it is tricky to not give it gas when braking 

 

I like the idea of wrapping the intake tube with something , for looks more than function 

got a 64 ford tractor. the clutch and left break are on the same side, plus its not a live PTO, so i'm waiting on a part to put on the PTO, so the tractor dont drive me up a tree, with the bush hog on it, or down the hill. be careful best ya can. HaHa

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this is more related to Bcs farm thread, pardon me fish for going off topic. i know you've said in the past your threads are mostly open, but i look at changing the topic  as a lack of respect, and making a mess of the forums.  so, I'll make a note to move my post soon. 

Edited by _Wilson_™

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well got a few more miles on the bike ,  idle is not perfect , sometimes it is fine , sometimes the idle will get low and the engine kill if a little throttle  is not applied 

 

Here is something I noticed , the steel tube against the carb will get a lot of water  condensation on it and is very cold to the touch , the tube on the engine side gets warm , the hose in between the two tubes are are a  neutral temperature , the long intake might be affecting it 

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Condensation on the intake manifold is caused by rapid cooling due to fuel vaporizing inside the tube. If the motor were methanol fueled that tube would have a thick frost on it.

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3 hours ago, retro said:

Condensation on the intake manifold is caused by rapid cooling due to fuel vaporizing inside the tube. If the motor were methanol fueled that tube would have a thick frost on it.

 

So do you think that  condensation is  normal and isn't causing a problem  where the carb needs to be closer to the engine ? 

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I never noticed the condensation and coldness before today and it was kind of cold this morning when I rode the bike and did notice it , temp was in the low 50s and the humidity must have been high as everything had morning dew on it , they bike was kept inside ----that 17 miles was total miles on it at that time , 12 was the most I put on it on one day

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Yup the condensation is normal. Gasoline has a low vapor pressure property. It readily vaporizes as air pressure drops (& velocity increases) inside the intake port. When a liquid vaporizes it cools. Alcohol fuels have an even lower vapor pressure than gasolines, so they vaporize much more rapidly inside an intake port which leads to freezing/frosty intakes. Fuel vaporization converts liquid fuel into a gas that readily mixes with air... which provides nearly ideal combustion conditions and optimal (& predictable) expansion rate of those burning gases. Its termed the "Gas exchange process" in thermodynamic theory. But I'm getting too deep into the sciences here... ya got another problem that needs a solution, so lets talk about that.

 

The long intake tube becomes a problem for attaining a strong idle (kills throttle response too), since the piston displacement is only 50cc.... high elasticity of the much higher volume (than is displaced by the piston) of air inside the long intake tube while the motor is idling destroys the pulse strength of the sharp pressure drop across the idle circuit in the carb.... which results in lower velocity (& a higher pressure) of the air entering the intake tube past the idle enrichment port in the carb... The idle circuit is dependent on a large pressure differential on each side of the throttle butterfly or slide, it is atmospheric pressure that makes a carb work, not suction or vacuum (provided by the piston) like most folks think. The piston performs none of the work of cylinder filling.

 

So a poor and very weak idle is caused by the high volume of gases inside the intake, which are very elastic. That gases column is stretching rather than moving during abrupt pressure change moments. A shorter low volume intake is required to fix it.

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As you know cold air is denser than warm air relative to its temperature, which means that more oxygen molecules exist in an equal volume of cold air than exists in a warmer air volume. Rapid fuel vaporization is beneficial to the gas exchange process in many ways (liguids convert to gases sooner, cold gases cool the piston, valves & chamber, resist pre-ignition & detonation conditions, etc.) but its primary contribution to the gas exchange process is shifting oxygen molecules closer together so that a greater number of oxygen molecules occupy the confined combustion space.

 

Did you know that gasoline, alcohols, LP, Methane, and diesel are not actually motor fuels at all? Thats right, those liquids and gases that we fill our tanks with are only chemical reactant agents that react exo-thermically in the presence of oxygen. There is only one true fuel existing in our local universe and that fuel is Oxygen! Truth!

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2 hours ago, retro said:

As you know cold air is denser than warm air relative to its temperature, which means that more oxygen molecules exist in an equal volume of cold air than exists in a warmer air volume. Rapid fuel vaporization is beneficial to the gas exchange process in many ways (liguids convert to gases sooner, cold gases cool the piston, valves & chamber, resist pre-ignition & detonation conditions, etc.) but its primary contribution to the gas exchange process is shifting oxygen molecules closer together so that a greater number of oxygen molecules occupy the confined combustion space.

 

Did you know that gasoline, alcohols, LP, Methane, and diesel are not actually motor fuels at all? Thats right, those liquids and gases that we fill our tanks with are only chemical reactant agents that react exo-thermically in the presence of oxygen. There is only one true fuel existing in our local universe and that fuel is Oxygen! Truth!

entropy= change of state. as far as oxygen, i always thought of it as a catalyst. sort of the missing ingredient. but if oxygen is the fuel, i guess the rest are catalyst.

for the length between the carb an engine, i figured that if insulation was used, it might make the difference. i had that 1/4 inch foam in mind, used in ac piping ya put of the low pressure side.

even though the high pressure side dont sweat, maybe it wouldn't hurt to insulate it as well. just a thought. seems like it would make it more efficient.

 

Edited by LedFTed
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4 hours ago, Fishfiles said:

I never noticed the condensation and coldness before today and it was kind of cold this morning when I rode the bike and did notice it , temp was in the low 50s and the humidity must have been high as everything had morning dew on it , they bike was kept inside ----that 17 miles was total miles on it at that time , 12 was the most I put on it on one day

 

with the low pressure being at sea level where you live, plus the very humid conditions along with what retro stated, all adds up to a shorter of modified intake, I'd be curios as to what new routing the intake will have. especially while trying to keep the carb as close to level as can be. 

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Quote

for the length between the carb an engine, i figured that if insulation was used, it might make the difference. i had that 1/4 inch foam in mind, used in ac piping ya put of the low pressure side.

even though the high pressure side dont sweat, maybe it wouldn't hurt to insulate it as well. just a thought. seems like it would make it more efficient.

 

once the cooling process starts again, the foam insulate will just aid in keeping it even colder, have to have a heat source for mechanics   of that to work, and here there isn't one. 

Edited by _Wilson_™
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I kind of thought the long intake might be a problem  -------- I dread trying to relocate the carb , but then again I do like a challenge 

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4 hours ago, retro said:

As you know cold air is denser than warm air relative to its temperature, which means that more oxygen molecules exist in an equal volume of cold air than exists in a warmer air volume. Rapid fuel vaporization is beneficial to the gas exchange process in many ways (liguids convert to gases sooner, cold gases cool the piston, valves & chamber, resist pre-ignition & detonation conditions, etc.) but its primary contribution to the gas exchange process is shifting oxygen molecules closer together so that a greater number of oxygen molecules occupy the confined combustion space.

 

Did you know that gasoline, alcohols, LP, Methane, and diesel are not actually motor fuels at all? Thats right, those liquids and gases that we fill our tanks with are only chemical reactant agents that react exo-thermically in the presence of oxygen. There is only one true fuel existing in our local universe and that fuel is Oxygen! Truth!

 

I never knew that about oxygen being the true fuel  !!!  Learned something , thanks ----

 

Something happened here last week which might attest to that , there was a house fire in the city , when the firemen got there they broke the seal of the closed up house that was burning inside , it was like from the movie " Flashback " , when the air went it , it blew the house up in a huge fire ball , they had  video on the news , it was a super big fire and explosion in one second 

 

 

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i was looking at the pic again, would there be enough room right close to left side of  the seat  bar ? maybe just ahead of the seat extension clamp , then turn the air filter out to left ? 

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1 minute ago, _Wilson_™ said:

i was looking at the pic again, would there be enough room right close to left side of  the seat  bar ? maybe just ahead of the seat extension clamp , then turn the air filter out to left ? 

I am going to try that and some other locations , thinking it is going to take a very custom intake tube , keeping it out the way of my leg is going to be tuff ------  

 

you would not believe how many people have or have built one or more  motorized bicycles , when I had it parked in front of the flea market yesterday , quite a few people were asking if it was for sale ,  I meet two different  people who were very into them , one older guy had a wealth of knowledge  , he told me he has 4 right now and has been thru 1/2 dozen more , he really liked mine , made me feel good , he says he is doing nothing but 4 strokes now , he happened to be buddies with the bike guy at the market and I must have missed it as he said he bought a 2 stroker  from him for $50 a few months back , that was a wreck ,  and was able to get it running and sold it for $300 ----- the other guy and his wife actually have a booth at the market and they were talking with me about the bike , they were building them and selling them , she really impressed me on all she knew at them , she is the one that did my Coor-Lite beer cap , I was dropping off another cap to her and she is making me a Coke Classic 2009 Anniversary Edition 

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might hit that older guy for some ideas, maybe even the booth lady, i think recall a story about her, no it was the one who was a cook, and you talked her into opening a booth, sadly i don't recall the entire story, but as i recall you pretty much helped her get her life back. sounds a number of people were impressed with the build, did you tell any of them, that was a completely home made build ? 

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1 hour ago, _Wilson_™ said:

might hit that older guy for some ideas, maybe even the booth lady, i think recall a story about her, no it was the one who was a cook, and you talked her into opening a booth, sadly i don't recall the entire story, but as i recall you pretty much helped her get her life back. sounds a number of people were impressed with the build, did you tell any of them, that was a completely home made build ? 

Different lady does the food , there is a couple that besides sell things , they  do embroadering on hats / shirts and do vinyl graphics , they were  the ones that say the built motorized bikes , this is the Coors Lite she done for me , she is doing a Coke Cola for me now 

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8 minutes ago, Fishfiles said:

they  do embroadering on hats / shirts and do vinyl graphics

 

that gives me an idea. I'll PM you about it. 

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7 hours ago, LedFTed said:

if oxygen is the fuel, i guess the rest are catalyst.

 

Thats right.

 

EDIT: the others serve as catalysts for the exo-thermic reactions and most importantly, carriers of additional oxygen fuel.

 

6 hours ago, _Wilson_™ said:

once the cooling process starts again, the foam insulate will just aid in keeping it even colder, have to have a heat source for mechanics   of that to work, and here there isn't one. 

 

Heating the intake gases is counterproductive to combustion efficiency. Cold is not a problem its a benefit. The colder the column the denser it is. Remember oxygen is the fuel... so the goal is to pack as many oxygen molecules inside the chamber as possible.

 

4 hours ago, Fishfiles said:

Something happened here last week which might attest to that , there was a house fire in the city , when the firemen got there they broke the seal of the closed up house that was burning inside , it was like from the movie " Flashback " , when the air went it , it blew the house up in a huge fire ball , they had  video on the news , it was a super big fire and explosion in one second 

 

Yup, busting the doors & windows open in a rush was a rookie mistake. Those firefighters received poor and incorrect training.

 

Study the many ways that engine builders provide additional oxygen to combustion to get a better understanding of the whys. They add turbocharging or supercharging, both are air pumps that pack more oxygen molecules into the chamber than atmospheric pressure can. They add nitrous oxide injection.... because NOS contains lots of free oxygen and nitrogen is a safe, inert & stable gas to deliver it. They use alcohols because they contain lots of oxygen... Methanol contains more oxygen molecules per unit of volume than Ethanol does, so Methanol is their first choice. They add Nitromethane to Methanol because it contains gobs of free oxygen molecules and nitromethane reacts with methanol to free up additional oxygen molecules in methanol that otherwise could not be freed during combustion.

 

You can observe firsthand, motors running on oxygen at any dragstrip. Top fuel & funny car motors have only 500 cubic inches of displacement, yet each motor is capable of making several thousand horsepower. Watch a top fuelie motor idle.... you see nothing but raw unburned methanol & nitromethane mix blasting into the air from the open header pipes, but those motors are running strong because oxygen is what is fueling them, not the methanol/nitro mix. Watch that same motor when it goes WOT at the starting line and you observe even more raw unburned fuel being expelled into the air leaving dark liquid clouds in the air above the motor down the entire length of the track. Those are super-oxygen consumers... supercharging, methanol and nitromethane are all used together to deliver the maximum quantity of oxygen molecules to the combustion chambers without supplying too much oxygen... the gas exchange process goes super-critical (2500+ degrees reaction) when oxygen molecule density reaches a certain threshold. Supercritical events provide spectators with some incredible fireworks shows though. 🙂

 

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19 minutes ago, retro said:

Heating the intake gases is counterproductive to combustion efficiency. Cold is not a problem its a benefit. The colder the column the denser it is. Remember oxygen is the fuel... so the goal is to pack as many oxygen molecules inside the chamber as possible.

 

i wasn't saying it needs to be a hotter mixture at all, i realize a colder dense mixture produces better higher combustion, but insulating a long cold intake will just keep it colder,which is what caused the running issue, that's the point i was getting at.

 

a correction in the long intake, should cure the issue, 

Edited by _Wilson_™

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Yup insulating the intake tube provides a benefit.

 

1 minute ago, _Wilson_™ said:

but insulating a long cold intake will just keep it colder,which is what caused the running issue, that's the point i was getting at.

 

This statement is incorrect though. The poor running/idling/throttle response issue is due to the intake manifold having way too much volume.

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i agree with the longer intake being somewhat an issue, but it did run good for 14 miles except  on the colder more humid days , so, I'd say it's not too far from being right, and with limited places to mount the carb level enough, it's just going to be a test fine tune deal, with a shorter intake insulating shouldnt be needed, plus IMO would take away from the appearance. 

Edited by _Wilson_™

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oh come on ya'll..please dont' turn this into a rocket project !..lol. its bad enough we have to help members fix their atvs ?..now ya wanna explain how to make them break the sound barrier !..rofl.

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