Carl

59 minutes ago, Carl said:

thanks for the info about the manual but it predates my ATV  by 5 years.   

I don't believe there's any flooding because the ATV starts instantly when I use the electric starter no matter how many times I've pulled previously on the recoil.

 

I will test for spark at the plug gap when it's dark tonight.

 

if I get a spark, then maybe there's not enough residual current to crank the fuel pump or ignite the fuel injector.

 

Thanks for the Honda 420 service manual listing on eBay. I missed the fact that it's 2014 through 2020, but with that straightened out, I went ahead and ordered one.

I appreciate the tip; that should make life a lot easier now,  Have a great day !

4 minutes ago, _Wilson_™ said:

says FM1 too... which i believe is your model according to the original post. 

 

i take your going to check for a spark using the pull starter ?? 

That's correct.

48 minutes ago, Goober said:

If you want a schematic, Your owner’s manual should list the service manual number, maybe 61HR307?

heres one

https://www.ebay.com/itm/383668494149

 

maybe it’s fuel pressure-related and flooding it?. You say it doesn’t like to start after a shorter interval over longer? Is there a way to relieve fuel pressure?

thanks for the info about the manual but it predates my ATV  by 5 years.   

I don't believe there's any flooding because the ATV starts instantly when I use the electric starter no matter how many times I've pulled previously on the recoil.

I will test for spark at the plug gap when it's dark tonight.

if I get a spark, then maybe there's not enough residual current to crank the fuel pump or ignite the fuel injector.

Engine temperature doesn't seem to affect the problem, but time does. 

At one point last week, I let the ATV sit for 5 days in my garage ( daytime OAT approx 75° max), and the recoil starter ignited the engine with only a few easy pulls.

  A hour later, I even discharged the capacitor to ground,. waited a hour, and the recoil starter did his job fine.   But thereafter if I try to start it within a hour, or even a day or two,  he's cannot ignite the engine.

I stripped off the engine cowling and checked every inch of wiring and connectors for damage or looseness. There weren't none no how.

I've been searching online for an electrical wiring schematic for this 2019 Honda four Trx 4X4, but I just can't hardly find one to no how.

I found one for a 2007, But the online diagram truncated at the point where the lead from the capacitor joined in to the rest of the chassis wiring.

"You jes' cane-t hardly win ".

mine just uses a capacitor hooked into the electrical harness everything else is straight mechanical. there is 13.5 volts getting to the capacitor and it charges.

All this was done three weeks ago.  The fuel is fresh and treated with stabilizer.

15 minutes ago, TBRider said:

Could you Maybe answer my first question, what came with your kit and was it from a dealer?

Sorry, I thought I did.

  It came with the recoil mechanical starter mechanism (and it's bolts) that bolts onto the flywheel, a new flange bolt that goes into the flywheel, an oil seal, a washer, and a capacitor that plugs directly in to an existing harness in the battery tray.

will do.

1 minute ago, jeepwm69 said:

 

OK.  But you ignore the fact that if you need it, it won't work.  Doesn't really matter if it works now or not. 

 

Even if you have it where it will work "fine with one or two pulls" sitting in your driveway with a fully charged battery, if you actually NEED it, it's not going to work.

 

 

 

You appear to be correct.

All I can do at this point is haul it down to the Honda dealer and let them waste a lot of time tracing circuitry and spark at the plug,  only to tell me that everything's working fine.

7 minutes ago, jeepwm69 said:

 

@Melatv looked into adding the optional recoil, and said

 

I have did some testing on my TRX 420 -- This is what I have found as soon as the key is turn on the console lamps discharged the condenser right a way, before I could pull the pull start.
Also check the the system out and found that the condenser has to power the following.
Engine stop relay
Fuel pump relay to start fuel pump
Fuel injector
Ignition coil
Light up console lamps

Well with all the above having to be power up by that condenser it is just a joke. Like the installation for pull start kit states to be use only when battery is low. One would have to have one big condenser bank to power all that is needed to start the my ATV.

 

 

 

So basically if your battery is really dead or low, the pull start is useless.  Too many things requiring power for the EFI machines to run.

 

That said, this new guy claims his battery is fully charged, so would think it would start with the pull start.  Will be worthless if he actually needs it, but just to have to start his machine the hard way while sitting at home, it should work, right?

Thanks for the info about all the power that the condenser has to supply to the ATVs electrical system.   But still, the pull start was working fine with one or two pulls for four months.  Thanks for your help.

6 minutes ago, jeepwm69 said:

 

How many Hondas do you own?  I probably have 30 at the moment.  I've rebuild a half dozen 420's down to the crank over the last few years.  NONE have had a recoil.

 

The EFI machines do NOT come standard with a pull start in the US.  Yes, you can "order" one, but unless you special order one, they do not come with a recoil, with the exception of the Rincon.

 

Number 2 in this schematic is what comes from the factory.

 

https://www.partzilla.com/catalog/honda/atv/2017/trx420fm1-2ac/rear-crankcase-cover

 

You might want to do a little research before you go shooting off at the mouth.

 

 

 

 

 

 

If all you can do is use nasty language and make foolish accusations like "shooting your mouth off" stay off the comment site. Besides which you just contradicted yourself.

1 minute ago, jeepwm69 said:

And a 2005 would be carb'd without all the EFI electronics that produce your spark and fuel.  EFI machines are MUCH harder to pull start, and Honda doesn't even put them on their EFI machines in the US. 

 

For those of us who have been on the forums for years, we've seen a lot of the "recoil doesn't work on my XXXX (efi) machine." 

 

But what do we know.

 

 

 

 

 

 

You're wrong about that; go talk to a Honda dealer.   Or better yet, go to Honda's website and build a new EFI 4x4 rancher to your own specs.  You certainly can order an EFI model with a pull start on it. I have one.  Try to get your facts straight before commenting

That is absolute nonsense. This pull starter was working fine one or two pulls for months and then just stopped working.

I also have another Honda ATV (a 2005) that still starts on the first pull of the recoil after 15 years

11 minutes ago, TBRider said:

I use my pull start every other time just to keep it moving......

 

That's a good strategy. it's a lot wiser than those people who have been commenting and telling me how hard it is to start with a pull start and therefore I shouldn't use it to begin with. I don't need their kind of "help".

14 minutes ago, oh400ex said:

 

Welcome!

 

Most folks will post an introduction and tell us a bit about themselves and their Honda. Feel free to do that when you get a chance!

Here is a link to download your Honda service manual as well. All the information you need is in this PDF.

 

Sounds to me like the bike is just not running perfectly if it will easily start with electric but not with pull.

 

Few questions,

Why are you pull starting it to know that it is hard in the first place?

How old is the battery and what issues have you had surrounding the electrical system?

 

Have you done any adjustment to the idle screw?

 

Sometimes they are difficult to pull start if the idle is set a bit low.

If it has low idle... try raising it and see if the pull start is easier.

 

Let us know how it goes!

 

Edit: Few other things you can do to help with start are new air filter, oil change and most importantly Iridium spark plug upgrade.

The NGK iridium plugs will give you longer life and better starts and the cost of some hard-earned dollars.

the battery is new and it's putting out 13.5 volts.

  I pull started to make sure it will start in preparation for my field trip.   The spark plugs are stock Honda plugs and they're new. it's a new bike I've only had it since June 2nd bought new in the crate from the dealer. the idol is stable and seems to be right where it belongs.

New Honda recoil starter unit installed on 2019 Honda TRX420FM1K according to Honda instructions.   After only 4 months, recoil pull will not start engine.  Battery is topped up.  12 volts is present at the 2 pin connecter to the condenser (capacitor).  Sometimes the recoil works, but most of time it won't start the engine.  No damage, no water flooding. Electrical starter works fine.  I have cleaned all elec. connections.