04 450 foreman - bottom end. Help plz

[Igetby 1]

Hi everyone!! Need some help here!!

Picked this 04 450 foreman ES up.  “needs nothing but front tires and headlight assy”

 

long story short I fear for the worst. The vid attached is it idling with slight revving.. it does have a loose heat shield.. but it sounds like much more going on… it idles fine and runs quiet until its ran for a little bit. Once its warmed up it sounds like this!! 
 

Friends of mine with more experience than me are guaranteeing its the rod bearings / crank and needs a new crankshaft…. I cant stand the thought of doing someone the way I was done so pawning it off on someone else is not really an option for me…. So far looks like around 300-500$ (crank, gasket kit, shift drum) … couple tools..?? i’ve rebuilt the top end on quads but never went any deeper..

 

Wanting to see if you guys agree with other’s suspicions…  I also found goldish sparkles in my oil and one solid brass colored shaving... about half the size of the tip on a positive side double a battery…. surprisingly the oil filter was clean.. very little shavings compared to what I was expecting.. mainly aluminum and only one maybe two nearly microscopic brass shavings. With that and others opinions I’m nearly certain the best option is just to buy a new crankshaft….?? i’ve never done anything with the bottom end aside from a starter clutch/reduction gear on a 450r…. What parts am I most likely to need? It still runs great but im not riding it.. specialty tools needed? 3 jaw puller and a flywheel puller are all I should need aside from manual , impact / sockets and wrenches? Will a 3 inch jaw puller be ok? Heard the 6 inch was too big..  Sorry for the novel and many questions, im still nauseous at the thought of having to go elbow deep in something thats “ready for summer riding”. 
 

appreciate any input / advice! Thanks for reading!! 

[shadetree 5,869]

well...as you pointed out, it deff needs some inspection !. the best way i can tell you is, rip the engine out, go through it, this way..you will know what is wrong ?, what needs replacing ?, and the best part is: you get to learn how they not only come apart ?, but go back together too !..lol. you deff will need a flywheel puller tool, DO NOT SKIMP ON THIS TOOL !. once you get the engine out, then go through it, have a look at all the parts you remove. TAKE PLENTY OF PICS AS YOU TEAR IT DOWN !. this helps when time to put it back together. you will need a complete engine gasket kit stay far away from china crap !. oem is best !!. replace all the oil seals, replace the cam chain ( D.I.D.) IS VERY GOOD !. yes..you may need a new crank ?, but !!..until you get it torn down ?, this is hard to say ?!. count on a new piston maybe ?, boring out the cylinder maybe ?, this means a piston kit to a larger size piston if you can have it bored out/up ?. with a service manual, and us ?..we can guide you pretty much all the way. plan on new engine oil made for wet clutches !, oem oil filter. as to what can be wrong with it right now ?, well..if the person you bought it from just did a top end on it ?, chances are, they did not swap put the crank ?, and the crank has a bad spot ( worn out ) at the top of the connecting rod ?, or could be bad lower rod bearings ?. as you can see by now, there is really no way of knowing..UNTIL YOU RIP IT OUT, AND APART !. but be ready to order parts !..you will need them. some you can order now..others you will not know until its apart.

[Igetby 1]

Thanks shadetree! Really appreciate your input and all the info!! If its a bad spot at top of the rod or bad bearings.. Is this something easy to replace? I felt with my lack of expertise it may be easier just to replace the entire crankshaft if theres any major imperfections..? honestly I wouldnt know what to look for other than obvious signs of impact / bends / play.. I dont worry so much about the top end as i’ve had just enough experience to be comfortable in that area.. and 400/450 lower end parts are the same, right? .. noticed the part number seems to be the same for 400/450s and es crank..  love the pic / video idea also as that was one of my biggest concerns and reasons for wanting to order ahead of time.. forgetting where stuff goes! … I think the bottom end kit I have ready to order has all seals and gaskets.. or I hope so!  Attaching pic just incase theres anything missing.. also.. i’ve heard the shift drum should always be replaced while in there..? Its not too costly but dont wana replace something if it isn’t necessary. 

Edited April 11 by Igetby

[shadetree 5,869]

29 minutes ago, Igetby said:

Thanks shadetree! Really appreciate your input and all the info!! If its a bad spot at top of the rod or bad bearings.. Is this something easy to replace? I felt with my lack of expertise it may be easier just to replace the entire crankshaft if theres any major imperfections..? honestly I wouldnt know what to look for other than obvious signs of impact / bends / play.. I dont worry so much about the top end as i’ve had just enough experience to be comfortable in that area.. and 400/450 lower end parts are the same, right? .. noticed the part number seems to be the same for 400/450s and es crank..  love the pic / video idea also as that was one of my biggest concerns and reasons for wanting to order ahead of time.. forgetting where stuff goes! … I think the bottom end kit I have ready to order has all seals and gaskets.. or I hope so!  Attaching pic just incase theres anything missing.. also.. i’ve heard the shift drum should always be replaced while in there..? Its not too costly but dont wana replace something if it isn’t necessary. 

moose used to be good..until china bought them out, i use nothing but oem honda parts if i can get them ?. do it once..cry once..buy china parts ?, you will hate it later !. if the top of the rod is bad ?, yes..new crank..yes..400/450 uses the same crank. you will need the cam chain too !..i only buy D.I.D. cam chains.

[shadetree 5,869]

motor will need to come out of frame, and split the motor.

[shadetree 5,869]

if you end up buying a new crank ?..don't forget to get 2 crank bearings while yer at it !.

[Igetby 1]

2 hours ago, shadetree said:

if you end up buying a new crank ?..don't forget to get 2 crank bearings while yer at it !.

I looked online and was unable to find any for the 450 foreman - the bearings your referring to fit on the crank its-self or in the case? I noticed a crank on ebay had the bearing included..? But only one that I seen.. is that the bearing your referring to? If not I can probably look up a part number. I’ll have to order me a good manual. The online one I found involves too much scrolling on a phone! Thanks again for your help and sharing the wisdom!

Edited April 11 by Igetby

[shadetree 5,869]

10 hours ago, Igetby said:

I looked online and was unable to find any for the 450 foreman - the bearings your referring to fit on the crank its-self or in the case? I noticed a crank on ebay had the bearing included..? But only one that I seen.. is that the bearing your referring to? If not I can probably look up a part number. I’ll have to order me a good manual. The online one I found involves too much scrolling on a phone! Thanks again for your help and sharing the wisdom!

yeah..the bearings go on the crank you see in this pic, it takes two,i highly advise you to order two new bearings for this crank if you buy it ?. you will need a bearing puller to get this old bearing off of this crank , or..you can use a chisle and hammer to wrok it off ?. BE SURE THIS CRANK ROD AT THE TOP IS GOOD B4 YOU BUY IT ?!. it may need to have the rod replaced as well ?, if this is the case ?, do not buy it.

[shadetree 5,869]

with a little time, lots of money, you can have it turn out like this one i built.

[jeepwm69 7,612]

11 hours ago, Igetby said:

I looked online and was unable to find any for the 450 foreman - the bearings your referring to fit on the crank its-self or in the case? I noticed a crank on ebay had the bearing included..? But only one that I seen.. is that the bearing your referring to? If not I can probably look up a part number. I’ll have to order me a good manual. The online one I found involves too much scrolling on a phone! Thanks again for your help and sharing the wisdom!

 

Call vince at Mr crankshaft.  He can rebuild your crank much cheaper than a new crank, and buying a used one chances are you'll get another worn out crank.  Rod will run you $120ish (not sure if his current price list is accurate) and about another $100-125 for labor and return shipping.   His turnaround is usually under a week, and he does great work.

 

http://www.mrcrankshaft.com/

 

 

The top end of the connecting rod where the wrist pin goes is usually what wears out, so he installs a new connecting rod (Vesrah, made in Japan, excellent quality) and trues the crank.   He will also remove that rear crank bearing that always comes out when you remove the crank, and if it's good you can reuse it, and if not, you can order a new bearing.   Very difficult to press a crank in with the bearing on the crank.   You press the bearing into the rear case, then the crank into the bearing.

 

Here's a thread I did on a 500 engine with some pics.   There are minor differences in the 450 and 500, but for the most part they are laid out the same, so won't be bad for reference. 

 

 

I use a 3 jaw puller on the centrifugal clutch.   If it slips off the clutch bell I use several long hose clamps linked together to hold the puller arms against the clutch bell.   You will need a flywheel puller, and the $10ish motion pro on ebay work fine for that.

 

Like Shade said, DID timing chain.  Don't buy a cheap one or you'll be tearing the engine back down.

 

You can remove the top end and inspect the cylinder, piston, and end of the connecting rod without pulling the whole engine.   My guess is they slapped a new chinese top end on a worn out connecting rod and that worn rod caused rapid wear on the new cylinder.

 

Since you have flakes in your oil, the safe long term fix is to pull engine, tear it all the way down and clean it up, and then reassemble with whatever new parts are needed.  Then you know what you have and know it's ok.

[shadetree 5,869]

19 minutes ago, jeepwm69 said:

 

Call vince at Mr crankshaft.  He can rebuild your crank much cheaper than a new crank, and buying a used one chances are you'll get another worn out crank.  Rod will run you $120ish (not sure if his current price list is accurate) and about another $100-125 for labor and return shipping.   His turnaround is usually under a week, and he does great work.

 

http://www.mrcrankshaft.com/

 

 

The top end of the connecting rod where the wrist pin goes is usually what wears out, so he installs a new connecting rod (Vesrah, made in Japan, excellent quality) and trues the crank.   He will also remove that rear crank bearing that always comes out when you remove the crank, and if it's good you can reuse it, and if not, you can order a new bearing.   Very difficult to press a crank in with the bearing on the crank.   You press the bearing into the rear case, then the crank into the bearing.

 

Here's a thread I did on a 500 engine with some pics.   There are minor differences in the 450 and 500, but for the most part they are laid out the same, so won't be bad for reference. 

 

 

I use a 3 jaw puller on the centrifugal clutch.   If it slips off the clutch bell I use several long hose clamps linked together to hold the puller arms against the clutch bell.   You will need a flywheel puller, and the $10ish motion pro on ebay work fine for that.

 

Like Shade said, DID timing chain.  Don't buy a cheap one or you'll be tearing the engine back down.

 

You can remove the top end and inspect the cylinder, piston, and end of the connecting rod without pulling the whole engine.   My guess is they slapped a new chinese top end on a worn out connecting rod and that worn rod caused rapid wear on the new cylinder.

 

Since you have flakes in your oil, the safe long term fix is to pull engine, tear it all the way down and clean it up, and then reassemble with whatever new parts are needed.  Then you know what you have and know it's ok.

i looked at mrcrank's website, his prices are very high compared to used or new cranks ?. but, as he already has found out, the 400-450 cranks are not around, so this leaves him with a used crank, new rod if needed ?. when i built the 450 for my gal's son, i got a used crank from powersports nation ( been a few yrs now ) for 25 bucks shipped !. he still runs/rides it today, still doing well. maybe one of these days i'll learn how to replace connecting rods ?..lol.

[jeepwm69 7,612]

12 minutes ago, shadetree said:

i looked at mrcrank's website, his prices are very high compared to used or new cranks ?. but, as he already has found out, the 400-450 cranks are not around, so this leaves him with a used crank, new rod if needed ?. when i built the 450 for my gal's son, i got a used crank from powersports nation ( been a few yrs now ) for 25 bucks shipped !. he still runs/rides it today, still doing well. maybe one of these days i'll learn how to replace connecting rods ?..lol.

 

I looked and the last two he did for me he charged $135 each for labor and return shipping.

 

So a rod at $120, plus $135 labor, is $255 including return shipping for a rebuilt "new" crank with zero wear on it.

 

Cheapest 450 crank on ebay that isn't listed as "for parts or not working" is $250 plus tax (so $275 for me), and then you have a used crank with wear for the same price.

 

New is no longer available for the 450's, so rebuild is the only option to get a "new" crank

 

Those 05-11 cranks are $700+ now for a new one.  You can get a Hot Rods crank (Taiwan) new but they're $500, so it saves a ton of money on that model getting Vince to do it vs buying another crank.

 

But yeah, you figure out how to rebuild cranks and you know you have a customer LOL

[jeepwm69 7,612]

20 minutes ago, shadetree said:

i looked at mrcrank's website, his prices are very high compared to used or new cranks ?. but, as he already has found out, the 400-450 cranks are not around, so this leaves him with a used crank, new rod if needed ?. when i built the 450 for my gal's son, i got a used crank from powersports nation ( been a few yrs now ) for 25 bucks shipped !. he still runs/rides it today, still doing well. maybe one of these days i'll learn how to replace connecting rods ?..lol.

 

I miss the days of cheap parts from PSN.  They still sell good stuff, but they aren't the bargain that they used to be.

 

A few years back I got a 350D rear diff from them for $100.  Inside looked new, but the ring gear bearings were seized from lack of use.  I took it apart, soaked those bearings in oil and then rotated them back and forth and that diff was as good as new.

[shadetree 5,869]

20 minutes ago, jeepwm69 said:

 

I looked and the last two he did for me he charged $135 each for labor and return shipping.

 

So a rod at $120, plus $135 labor, is $255 including return shipping for a rebuilt "new" crank with zero wear on it.

 

Cheapest 450 crank on ebay that isn't listed as "for parts or not working" is $250 plus tax (so $275 for me), and then you have a used crank with wear for the same price.

 

New is no longer available for the 450's, so rebuild is the only option to get a "new" crank

 

Those 05-11 cranks are $700+ now for a new one.  You can get a Hot Rods crank (Taiwan) new but they're $500, so it saves a ton of money on that model getting Vince to do it vs buying another crank.

 

But yeah, you figure out how to rebuild cranks and you know you have a customer LOL

nope, hot rod cranks was bought out by '' all balls '', and as you should know by now ?, '' all balls '' is china !. i will never use hot rod crank kits again.

[shadetree 5,869]

20 minutes ago, jeepwm69 said:

 

I miss the days of cheap parts from PSN.  They still sell good stuff, but they aren't the bargain that they used to be.

 

A few years back I got a 350D rear diff from them for $100.  Inside looked new, but the ring gear bearings were seized from lack of use.  I took it apart, soaked those bearings in oil and then rotated them back and forth and that diff was as good as new.

yeah..psn is no longer selling parts cheap !.

[retro 4,048]

The experts have got your back! The only thing I can add is: do not EVER replace ANY part with a china knockoff. Buy genuine OEM Honda parts only, or else!

 

I like Vince at Mr Crankshaft too, the Vesrah rods and his work are top notch.

[Igetby 1]

Thanks everyone!! Loved catching up on all the comments. appreciate each one too. Feel much more confident knowing theres great support here for any questions or issues I may run into along the way. I’ve long dreaded the day I may have bottom end work to do but looking forward to the experience now.. knowing its gotta be done! Hoping to get time to start on the tear down this weekend!! 

[shadetree 5,869]

27 minutes ago, Igetby said:

Thanks everyone!! Loved catching up on all the comments. appreciate each one too. Feel much more confident knowing theres great support here for any questions or issues I may run into along the way. I’ve long dreaded the day I may have bottom end work to do but looking forward to the experience now.. knowing its gotta be done! Hoping to get time to start on the tear down this weekend!! 

keep us posted !..we got yer back !.

[Igetby 1]

Hey everyone. So really nice weather has popped in this weekend.. i’ve got a strip job right above my house and a wife thats been waiting 6+ months on a ride…. You guys think i’d be pushing my luck to take it for a easy going 5-15 mile ride before getting into the tear down? I have a buddy who says his sounds just like mine and has for the past year .. being quiet as can be until it warms up then sounds like mine after reaching operating temps.. Has me thinking I might be able to get another small ride in… i know its a gamble but.. no smoke / no loss of power or issues aside from the chatter/pecking… would it get worse then how bad it sounds now before something let go.. or does it sound about as bad as it gets already? I know its a gamble and not ideal.. but it is a Honda 😅 thoughts?

[shadetree 5,869]

9 minutes ago, Igetby said:

Hey everyone. So really nice weather has popped in this weekend.. i’ve got a strip job right above my house and a wife thats been waiting 6+ months on a ride…. You guys think i’d be pushing my luck to take it for a easy going 5-15 mile ride before getting into the tear down? I have a buddy who says his sounds just like mine and has for the past year .. being quiet as can be until it warms up then sounds like mine after reaching operating temps.. Has me thinking I might be able to get another small ride in… i know its a gamble but.. no smoke / no loss of power or issues aside from the chatter/pecking… would it get worse then how bad it sounds now before something let go.. or does it sound about as bad as it gets already? I know its a gamble and not ideal.. but it is a Honda 😅 thoughts?

ok...how much money do you have on hand ?, i ask for the simple reason: if you end up doing more damage to it from this ride ?, its going to cost you a lot more money to fix all the extra parts you may end up doing.

[Igetby 1]

2 hours ago, shadetree said:

ok...how much money do you have on hand ?, i ask for the simple reason: if you end up doing more damage to it from this ride ?, its going to cost you a lot more money to fix all the extra parts you may end up doing.

Not alot! Lol i’d have max around 400-500 I could put into her. Shes driving me mad because she sounds so good at idle. Little noisy with rpms.. if only she sounded as good warm as she does cold… is there any chance it could be “normal” or something minor causing it? Since it sounds fine before shes warmed up? Another couple vids here one of it just idling after I turned idle down a bit.  Other of it when I rev it… sounds much worse in video but its still noticeable in person. What does it sound most like in your opinion shadetree? 

[shadetree 5,869]

5 hours ago, Igetby said:

Not alot! Lol i’d have max around 400-500 I could put into her. Shes driving me mad because she sounds so good at idle. Little noisy with rpms.. if only she sounded as good warm as she does cold… is there any chance it could be “normal” or something minor causing it? Since it sounds fine before shes warmed up? Another couple vids here one of it just idling after I turned idle down a bit.  Other of it when I rev it… sounds much worse in video but its still noticeable in person. What does it sound most like in your opinion shadetree? 

IMG_5110.mov IMG_5109.mov

sounds like a rod knock too me.

[Igetby 1]

So just an update. We took it for a ride today.. and it was quiet as can be..? Sounded great!  I noticed when cruising down hills with back pressure / engine braking it seems to chatter worse..? It’s idled beautifully all day with very little noise. ( I did adjust idle and add oil was little over quarter of a qt low)  Just seems to chatter when its revved up a bit now or going down a steep hill not giving any throttle / engine braking… Planning on tearing into it still asap. But hoping I wont have to go further down than the cylinder 🤞

Edited April 14 by Igetby

[retro 4,048]

I worked on a 450 once that had a loose valve guide (they're pressed into the aluminum head) that had risen up out of the head far enough that the underside of the valve spring retainer was hitting the top of the valve guide each time the intake valve opened, but the noise was intermittent and seemed to hammer more often when the motor was revved up. I fixed it by pulling the valve guide out of the head, cleaned up the guide and it's bore with 91% alcohol, then coated the guide and it's bore with Red Loctite and pushed the guide back in place. After cleaning up the excess Loctite I let it harden overnight then lapped that valve in to the seat with lapping compound and it's still running strong. You'll never know what you'll find wrong until ya open it up!

 

Do you know how many hours/miles are on your 450?

[Igetby 1]

18 minutes ago, retro said:

I worked on a 450 once that had a loose valve guide (they're pressed into the aluminum head) that had risen up out of the head far enough that the underside of the valve spring retainer was hitting the top of the valve guide each time the intake valve opened, but the noise was intermittent and seemed to hammer more often when the motor was revved up. I fixed it by pulling the valve guide out of the head, cleaned up the guide and it's bore with 91% alcohol, then coated the guide and it's bore with Red Loctite and pushed the guide back in place. After cleaning up the excess Loctite I let it harden overnight then lapped that valve in to the seat with lapping compound and it's still running strong. You'll never know what you'll find wrong until ya open it up!

 

Do you know how many hours/miles are on your 450?

Yea it has 500 hrs / almost 1600 miles. Unsure if the cluster was ever changed.. thought so with it having motor issues already..  but the body and all suspension components are clean and minty. Its super tight all the way around. even the parking brake still works 😅. Im deff going to tear into it and have heard since its only when warmed up it could be the valve seat… what kind of damage would it cause riding it like that? If its a guide or the seat..