450FM, no neutral light issue

[retro 4,048]

3 hours ago, jeepwm69 said:

If so, wouldn’t 015 be almost no resistance, or pretty close to perfect continuity?

 

Yeah, 015 ohms does not provide supporting evidence for a short circuit. So next up I would check the meter like @AKATV outlined earlier in this thread.

[jeepwm69 7,608]

I think I did that, and the neutral light only came on when I hit ground to green/red, but that's been more than two hours ago so I'll redo his instructions and report back with detailed findings.

[jeepwm69 7,608]

On 6/30/2022 at 2:07 PM, AKATV said:

 

Last time i had both reverse and neutral light come on it was a blown fuse believe it or not-I cant remember which one, but it also caused a no spark condition? so IGN?

The only way for them both to come on would be (somehow) for the wires or contact points to get ground signal since other side of circuit is hot and just require a grong to illuminate each light

Since meter is new its most likely fuse, or wiring issue-you can jumper the key switch connector to elimate switch if you think you might have an issue there

The meter needs 2 sources of 12 volts to properly power up

green is ground and then 12volts + at red/black wire and 12 volts at black/brown wire

One is hot all the time for (clock memory) and one is key on voltage to power up meter cpu circuit

green/red wire is neutral

gray wire is reverse

I'm sure its something simple-might have blown a diode on the circuit board hooking up carb heater BUT I believe that its temperature controlled and circuit should not have been even powered up down in your neck of the woods -OR mine even lol, I THINK that circuit closes and powers the heater at at 40 -ish degrees or so-just guessing on temp

Not sure how disassembled bike is but if you can get to the gray speedometer plug and unplug it, put 12 volts on the red/black and black/brown wire on speedo harness and then ground your green/red N pin to see if only the N light comes on then

If so, we need to backtrace and find why the green/red neutral and gray for reverse are causing an issue

If they do both come on you might have zapped the speed -doubtful but possible

 

 

Ground to green wire and positive to black with brown and red with black resulted in a neutral light on and no other lights.

[AKATV 822]

Well that sure sounds like your meter’s working properly

 we need to figure out why you’re getting a short to ground on that gray reverse wire

If it’s not coming through your position switch 

 

[retro 4,048]

2 hours ago, jeepwm69 said:

Ground to green wire and positive to black with brown and red with black resulted in a neutral light on and no other lights.

 

...and the Lg/R wire were grounded too right?

 

I would leave the parts you unplugged alone and plug just the meter back in, then turn the key on and see if it still works normally. If not the harness must be shorted. If so, then with key off plug in the 4wd control module and see if it still works normally.  Repeat until everything is plugged in except the gear position switch.

[jeepwm69 7,608]

12 hours ago, retro said:

 

...and the Lg/R wire were grounded too right?

 

I would leave the parts you unplugged alone and plug just the meter back in, then turn the key on and see if it still works normally. If not the harness must be shorted. If so, then with key off plug in the 4wd control module and see if it still works normally.  Repeat until everything is plugged in except the gear position switch.

 

Yes, sorry the Lg/R wire was grounded, and then 12V applied to the Black/Brown and the Red/Black and the neutral light came on (no reverse light).

 

With the meter simply plugged back in I get nothing.  If I ground the Lg/R wire directly THEN both Neutral and Reverse lights come on.  I'd planned on wiring in a "start in gear" mod on this machine like I did on the kids' 300 and 350 Rancher, so when I didn't get a Neutral light initially, I ran a jumper ground wire to the Lg/R wire going to the meter to see if I got a Neutral light.  That's when I got both Neutral and Reverse lights on.

 

The 4WD on these doesn't work unless the engine is running, although I'm pretty sure it will start and run if I ground the Lg/R wire.  I was hoping to figure out the wiring issue before I tried running it.

 

I'd like to understand what's wrong, but I'm leaning towards just ordering a new harness from PSN.  They're $135 and they have several.  If I wait I'm sure they'll have a sale before long so hopefully I could get one a bit cheaper.

 

My fear there is that a component is causing the issue, and not the wiring harness itself.  Thus the troubleshooting.

 

If yall aren't sick of giving me kindergartenesqe instructions and maybe even teaching me something about electrical systems, I'm game to keep picking at this one.

[AKATV 822]

Jeep

I’m gonna take a good hard look at the wiring diagram 

Just as a last ditch hail mary I had a machine it was baffling me beyond belief because the neutral and reverse light was on and it ended up being a popped fuse

 -I was looking at wrong one

I believe it also resulted in no spark

not sure but it’s worth checking I would have to look at the wiring diagram to see why a popped fuse would make the neutral reverse light come on but I know that I just put the fuse back in and it went away and it’s been working fine ever since

 

 

 

[jeepwm69 7,608]

29 minutes ago, AKATV said:

Jeep

I’m gonna take a good hard look at the wiring diagram 

Just as a last ditch hail mary I had a machine it was baffling me beyond belief because the neutral and reverse light was on and it ended up being a popped fuse

 -I was looking at wrong one

I believe it also resulted in no spark

not sure but it’s worth checking I would have to look at the wiring diagram to see why a popped fuse would make the neutral reverse light come on but I know that I just put the fuse back in and it went away and it’s been working fine ever since

 

 

 

 

If I recall correctly, one of the first things I did was make sure the fuses all had power coming and and going out of each fuse.

[Fishfiles 20,145]

I remember one model of the 450 has a fuse holder by itself separate of the fuse box , right to the left and above #19 fuse , might only be the ES 

[jeepwm69 7,608]

41 minutes ago, Fishfiles said:

I remember one model of the 450 has a fuse holder by itself separate of the fuse box , right to the left and above #19 fuse , might only be the ES 

 

Looks like the FM is different.  All the fuses in a regular fuse box.

 

Found a harness online with CDI, fan control, and 4wd controller for $150ish, and it has a 90 day warranty.   Wouldn't be a bad idea to have spares for those components......

 

But, would prefer to get this one worked out if I can.

[retro 4,048]

5 hours ago, jeepwm69 said:

My fear there is that a component is causing the issue, and not the wiring harness itself. 

 

Mine too... thats why everything else on both the Grey wire circuit and the Light green/Red wire circuit was unplugged. I just looked again at the wiring diagram and there is nothing left... its gotta be a short in the harness.

 

The Grey wire circuit is the shorter one of the two in question... it connects to three parts: the Meter, the 4wd control module and the gear position switch. So before buying a used harness I would tear open the suspect harness following the Grey wire between the meter plug, the 4wd control module plug and the gear position switch to find the short. I'd have to find proof of a short before I'd spend money.

[retro 4,048]

If you open the harness up, begin by following the Grey wire from the gear position switch to the Meter. That section of the harness is where you're most likely to find a short.

[AKATV 822]

I remember something they taught us in school for quicker troubleshooting on harnesses if you can find that gray wire in the middle of the harness and just cut it then you can test from that end to one side and see if it shorted and then text from the other end to the other side and see if it’s short and then kind of cut your work in half (lol)-but whatever works for you

[jeepwm69 7,608]

35 minutes ago, AKATV said:

I remember something they taught us in school for quicker troubleshooting on harnesses if you can find that gray wire in the middle of the harness and just cut it then you can test from that end to one side and see if it shorted and then text from the other end to the other side and see if it’s short and then kind of cut your work in half (lol)-but whatever works for you

So hypothetically, got the gray wire into in the middle, and then check for continuity between the end of the wire and ground?  When I get the beep I found the bad section?

[AKATV 822]

Yes that’s pretty much correct if you cut it in the middle and then check from the middle and to one end and see if the resistance measurement that you had before goes away

One half should be good at that point and then the other side should have the problem and then you can either cut the bad side in half and check the sam way again or start stripping the harness for that half

Then if and when you find a short, you just have to repair the wires that were cut sometimes it’s easier than stripping a lot of harness down

Just make sure there’s only one gray wire in the harness and you’re cutting the right one,you should be able to check with the multimeter to get a beep just to know that it’s the right wire

[jeepwm69 7,608]

Well after a rainy weekend and several hectic days I finally got around to looking at this again.

 

Y’all know how troubleshooting electric stuff over the Internet is.

 

Usually something stupid that the person misses when they’re working on it, right?

 

This is no exception!

 

I shaved the insulation off of the gray wire about halfway back on the wheeler.  Had continuity from the gear position switch plug to the middle of the harness.  Had continuity from the middle of the harness to the meter plug.  Hmmmmm.

 

Then I thought I would see what happened with the gear position switch plugged back in.  The gear position switch plug on the main harness was not where it was supposed to be.  It was where the carb heater is supposed to be (on the frame).   The wires are weathered and it is hard to tell what color they are so looked closely, cleaned them, and sure enough green and gray.

 

so earlier when I thought I had figured position switch plugged in to the wrong plug, it was actually in the right plug. Still no neutral light, but if I push shifter down with the bike in neutral,  and with the reverse lever not pulled, both neutral and reverse light up.   If you recall this is what I incorrectly thought before was because I had the switch plugged into the wrong place.

 

So, with gear position switch plugged into the proper place in the main harness, and THEN grounding the Lt Green/red wire, NOW I get a Neutral light, no reverse!

 

So it appears I have a bad neutral switch OR I have it 180° out.

 

Am I correct that have it 180 out it will show neutral in fourth or fifth gear?  I have a feeling the switch is bad since both neutral and reverse come on when I push down on the shifter and the drum rotates against the reverse stop. 
 

Frustrating but still progress!

 

of course the gear position switch for this machine is discontinued🤦‍♂️
 

I did check the switch to see if I had continuity between green/red and battery ground with bike in neutral.  Negative.

 

There was continuity between grey wire and the green wire on the switch with it unplugged

[retro 4,048]

Well it's good that there is nothing wrong with the wiring harness. It's bad that ya gotta reorient, repair or replace the gear position switch though. I would yank the alternator cover off and check the orientation, and if that is fine I would try to take the switch apart to see if I could fix it. The metal can on the switch can be removed to expose the rotor inside... just gotta be careful ya don't break the plastic cover while you're prying up the crimped and dimpled edge of the metal can.

[jeepwm69 7,608]

1 hour ago, retro said:

Well it's good that there is nothing wrong with the wiring harness. It's bad that ya gotta reorient, repair or replace the gear position switch though. I would yank the alternator cover off and check the orientation, and if that is fine I would try to take the switch apart to see if I could fix it. The metal can on the switch can be removed to expose the rotor inside... just gotta be careful ya don't break the plastic cover while you're prying up the crimped and dimpled edge of the metal can.

Well you took the fun out of me posting up what the inside of one of these switches looks like!

 

I think either me hooking it up to the wrong plug (most likely) or someone else doing something similar in the past (less likely) pretty much killed this switch.

 

If you think about it, the switch grounds when it hits the Neutral tab.  If I had this plugged into the carb heater plug and had 12V running through that switch to ground, that would certainly explain the burnt wires and metled plastic around the contact.

 

I ordered one from PSN.  Cost me $80......😭   With that melted plastic around the Neutral terminal I wasn't convinced that this one would work well even cleaning it up and working on it a bit. 

Edited August 3, 2022 by jeepwm69

[jeepwm69 7,608]

I do have a 400 Foreman bottom end here, but it's an earlier model.  Looks like one part number is 95-98   https://www.partzilla.com/product/honda/35759-HM7-700?ref=3156e5936af38a71c014c6bae1c5ff51c2f7642c

 

 and the other is 00-04 for both the 400FW and the 450FW.  https://www.partzilla.com/product/honda/35759-HN0-A01?ref=dec9aa4c9354c9d720046d82a0920090a7196046

 

When I get the PSN part I will post pics of both side by side.  I have a feeling they will interchange with no problem, but I will post what I find up here for future reference, since both of these part numbers are discontinued.

 

The ES gear position switch is discontinued as well, but they are available cheaper than the FM switches I found.  I debated buying one of these for $45 instead of spending $80 on the FM model.  Looks like one could simply cut off the 4 wire plug on the end, hook the two wire plug to the Neutral and Reverse wires coming off the 4 wire plug, and it will work properly, right?

 

But since this isn't my machine, I ordered the correct part.  Ready to get this one wrapped up and out of my yard!

[jeepwm69 7,608]

Got my used gear position switch in from PSN yesterday afternoon. Got it installed today and I now have neutral and reverse as I should.

 

After cleaning up the old switch I think it will actually function although it doesn’t turn very smoothly given the plastic melting around one of the contacts.

 

Keeping it as a spare though!

[snakeman1228 0]

So I'm having the same issue and i have gone through and checked everything and found I only have 8v goin to my gear position switch, is it supposed to be battery Voltage if so could a messed up speedometer be the problem or wat else do I need to check. Ps new member and I have a 01 foreman 450es

 

[retro 4,048]

Hi snakeman1228, welcome to the forum!

 

The gear position switch supplies a ground for each wire only, there should not be any voltage measured on that switch. Check that the switch is not mistakenly plugged into the carburetor heater connector, those two are side by side on the frame. The GP switch test is below. Let us know what you find.