quadjunkie454 9 Posted September 21, 2021 hello all! ive tried doing some searching. Ive tried changing the angle sensor and a brand new fresh charged battery. ive been unplugging connectors cleaning and dielectric grease. There are no codes on the display. Gear selector display - - when its in neutral, the gear # goes to - - when driving around. shifts HARD!! I looked for a manual but only 2005 and older are in the manual sticky... i think its the gear selector sensor? anyway im getting into the back of the engine trans now. some pointers or ways of testing? a real link to a manual? thanks to all im hard at it! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jeepwm69 7,719 Posted September 21, 2021 Welcome to the board. How long have you had the machine? Any chance it has a gear reduction installed? I believe there was a reflash available on the computers on some of the later DCT's that eased up on the hard shifting. But you're going to have all kinds of issues if it can't tell what gear it's in. Download the 420FA manual https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/12hzs10L_Gwu0aVyp8vhmEXNdf2N2P7tk Gear position switch troubleshooting should be the same, as the newer 420's and 500's are pretty much the same engine (my wife's 420FA has a 500 top end on it, bolted right on). Only real differences are clutches, stator, and top end, which are all beefier on the Foreman. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quadjunkie454 9 Posted September 22, 2021 thank you kindly! ive had it for 2 weeks its a friends i took on the job of trying to fix it for him for hunting season. A reflash so i have to take it into the dealer for a flash? i found some wires rubbing on the rear driveshaft boot, trying to see if thats the issue a gear reduction is that aftermarket or stock how could i know? yes it will not shift and displays - - only, no shift motor noise ( he also states the shift motor has been changed 3 times) no flash, i tried holding up and down same time turning on the ignition and releasing and pressing both again like it says online. i will look at the manual closely thanks man!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quadjunkie454 9 Posted September 22, 2021 ok the shift solenoid make a click. good i dont have a oil pressure gauge hook up system yet. says to check oil pressures.. No current codes or blinks off the MIL (engine light) or blinks from the gear position indicator... hmmm now i need a MCS motorcycle communication scanner??? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TBRider 1,411 Posted September 22, 2021 Probably has a cheap China shift motor if this is his 3rd replacement Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jeepwm69 7,719 Posted September 22, 2021 Until your seeing gears and a speedometer reading I would treat it as a sensor issue. Gear reduction would not be stock, but does cause harsher shifting and can mess with the sensors that control shifting. First thing to do is check out the gear position switch. And if that shift motor is amazon/ebay/china junk, toss it and get an OEM, even if it’s used. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quadjunkie454 9 Posted September 23, 2021 heres what i know. the starter was bought at honda shop by himself, no sticker or tag.. the gears are placed correctly, the clip on the plug is broken. put it back on. turned the key hit the button with -- displayed no handbrake applied it started, then N came on, then i slowly upshifted to 3rd then --, sometimes would gear down sometimes not, stationary on the lift table,still no blinks, shut it off turned it on - - no start its weird sensor issue i believe yes jeep but im trying to understand this honda lingo of testing the grey plug 33 under right butt cheek for the gear position switch and the black plug (rear of the tank) for the shift drum position switch, very confusing Turn the ignition switch OFF and disconnect the PCM 33P (Black) connector (page 4-36). Check for continuity between wire harness side 33P (Black) connector [1) terminals and ground. There should be continuity only at the terminal that corresponds to the shift drum position (open circuit inspection). There should be no continuity at the other terminals (short circuit inspection). You must test at ten terminals in each shift drum position. Turn the ignition switch OFF and disconnect the PCM 33P (Black) connector (page 4-36). Check for continuity between wire harness side 33P (Black) connector [1) terminals and ground. There should be continuity only at the terminal that corresponds to the shift drum position (open circuit inspection). There should be no continuity at the other terminals (short circuit inspection). You must test at ten terminals in each shift drum position. Shift drum position Connector terminal 5R (5th/Reverse) A25 N (Neutral) A17 12 (1st/2nd) A27 N2 (Neutral/2nd) A1 32 (3rd/2nd) A26 3N (3rd/Neutral) A29 34 (3rd/4th) A2 N4 (Neutral/4th) A24 54 (5th/4th) A13 5N (5th/Neutral) A12 open vs closed circuit trying to wrap my head around how im going to experience test for 3rd/Neutral or Neutral/4th wth does that even mean i have alot of reading. im a 3rd year heavy duty trying to learn.i havent even turned a bolt yet. i dred its the drum sensor deep in the rear of the unit. trying to get a pin probe set but the tool guy is away Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TBRider 1,411 Posted September 23, 2021 We might need @toodeep Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quadjunkie454 9 Posted September 23, 2021 How do you know what gear you’ve applied with IGN off, how do you apply a gear with IGN off. Do I use manual gear tool sticking out from just under the starter motor (little hex shaft) do I manually turn that? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jeepwm69 7,719 Posted September 23, 2021 First of all, if you're testing on jack stands/ a lift, need to have it in 4wd. There's a speed sensor on the back of the engine, and another on the front diff. If they aren't reading the same speed the ECU gets wonky with the shifting. The angle sensor is on the back of the engine and can be removed and replaced easily. The gear position switch is under the rear cover, but you don't have to go into the engine to get at it. You have to remove the rear engine cover, which can be done with the engine in the frame (I prefer to pull the engine, but it CAN be done with it in the frame). Have you tried shifting it manually with the emergency shifter? If it shifts wonky then, you know it's a mechanical issue. If it shifts fine you have some sort of sensor/electrical issue. i've seen a few threads where there is a pin that backs out/breaks off under the front cover on the shift linkage which causes shifting problems, but before we start pulling the engine apart we need to see if it shifts easily with the emergency shifter and how the meter reads those shifts. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quadjunkie454 9 Posted September 23, 2021 (edited) Oh ok I will put it in 4wd now for testing yes I read somthing about the speed sensor linked to the front diff I’ll have to look at that section of the e manual and figure out that test angle sensor changed first day it was here. yes on the rear cover leaving the engine in would be my plan of attack as well. I wish there was a brain dead way to test the position switch without going through the trouble but that’s what I’m up against I will do that! It does not have an emergency shifter on the left-hand side of the engine where your ankle is, i’m thinking it’s the small hex shaft sticking out 1 inch below the shifter motor. I threw a ratchet and socket on it and I was not able to go through the gears I left the display on - - never say a change in gear display via twisting the emergency shifter ither direction, maby it’s bound up. Gears look ok behind shifter motor I will investigate that pin on the shift linkage the front cover tonight 630pm mst thank you jeep ya I’m just having trouble with the testing aspect, Electrical is definitely not my strong point Edited September 23, 2021 by quadjunkie454 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jeepwm69 7,719 Posted September 23, 2021 Trust me, I've had fits with the wife's 09 DCT. Bought it back in 2015 (ish) as a blown up, sunk, barely running project (but it was cheap!). Took me forever to get it shifting right, but I did a gear reduction so that added some potential places issues could arise. Anyhow, working on that was how i figured out that shifting is screwed up if the wheels are off the ground. Putting it in 4wd will make all 4 wheels spin, so the front and rear speedo sensors should be sync'ed up/ read the same speed so the ECU will allow shifting. And yeah, there's a little 8mm bolt sticking out of the front cover that the emergency shifter goes on on the DCT machines (not where the usual ES emergency shifter goes). You might have to rock it while trying to shift there. I haven't ever tried to use the one on the wife's bike. Her's isn't shifting again now. I'm waiting on a new speed sensor now as a matter of fact. I've got something that is definitely electrical/sensor issue going on with hers. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jeepwm69 7,719 Posted September 23, 2021 You did put an OEM angle sensor on it, right ? Not an ebay or Amazon special? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quadjunkie454 9 Posted September 24, 2021 if its cheap and you can fix it im all for it, nice job man bring it back from the dead!wiah i could buy you a beer for the tips. appreciate canceling the hijack, Ive looked for quality threads for days before i made this post, Im sick of reading threads that just don't get down to the solution or drift off or end or not available anymore. heres what i know so far, yes brand new Honda Ang sensor, using 8mm 1/4" ratchet I definitely found Neutral only by applying throttle, rotating the shaft clockwise from the from i found 1st, it bucked, the i tried to apply 2nd it was immediately stuck stopped leaning on the shaft pretty good. would not apply 2nd gear, i brought it back into N, it feels like a mechanical problem!!! but im going to throw jackstands on it now before i drive it off the lift, maby try to emerg shift into 2nd wheels up i bought probe spoons and banna jack cords for my meter today im going to try the shift switch now grey plug now unless i should attack the front cover broke pin or the rear cover shift switch-drum bs Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quadjunkie454 9 Posted September 24, 2021 (edited) ok wheels up 1st gear a code appears i get 2long 3short indicator -- blinks going rolling in 1st gear. Going to to look it up now, could not get 2nd gear, speedo seemed to rise and fall normally Edited September 24, 2021 by quadjunkie454 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quadjunkie454 9 Posted September 24, 2021 2 long 3 short. says Shift spindle operation malfunction (after . Gearshift function does not operating gearshift mechanism) work (2nd, 4th or reverse gear only 23-1 (23) code # . Shift spindle angle sensor installation problem - . Shift spindle angle sensor or its circuit malfunction Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quadjunkie454 9 Posted September 24, 2021 book says DTC 23-1 (SHIFT SPINDLE ANGLE SENSOR MALFUNCTION: After operating gearshift mechanism) Refer to DTC 22-1 (page 13-34 ). DTC 22-1 (SHIFT SPINDLE ANGLE SENSOR MALFUNCTION: While operating gearshift mechanism) 1. Shift Spindle Angle Sensor System Inspection Check the shift spindle angle sensor with the MCS. Is Low voltage (about O V) or High voltage (about 5 V) indicated? YES - • About O V: See OTC 21-1 (page 13-32) • About 5 V: See OTC 21-2 (page 13-33) NO - GO TO STEP 2. I dont have a MCS. can a guy perform this test with no MCS?? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quadjunkie454 9 Posted September 24, 2021 pulled the ANG sensor, its indexed correctly on the shaft. Inspecting the harness Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quadjunkie454 9 Posted September 24, 2021 (edited) tried to probe the 3 wire angle sensor, couldn't get a voltage increase or decrease. not sure if its possible to test that way Edited September 24, 2021 by quadjunkie454 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jeepwm69 7,719 Posted September 24, 2021 So you can't shift it manually past first? Wonder if you have the "broken return pin" that I've seen referenced on a few of these machines..... @toodeep @Melatv any ideas? Look at posts 22 and 23 here https://www.hondaatvforums.net/threads/2016-trx420fa-not-shifting-properly-or-not-at-all.103466/page-2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quadjunkie454 9 Posted September 24, 2021 35 minutes ago, jeepwm69 said: So you can't shift it manually past first? Wonder if you have the "broken return pin" that I've seen referenced on a few of these machines..... @toodeep @Melatv any ideas? Look at posts 22 and 23 here https://www.hondaatvforums.net/threads/2016-trx420fa-not-shifting-properly-or-not-at-all.103466/page-2 Correct I definitely found neutral and one forward gear. Won’t go past that and it feels like the shift shaft is binding I would say that a pin is broke. that thread describes exactly what I’m experiencing, major tear down it says. awesome now we’re getting somewhere, I am so thankful thank you. Job is not done yet Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
toodeep 1,759 Posted September 24, 2021 I just breezed through the threads so I probably missed some key things. Are you getting the gear display now or still -- ? If still -- was the gear position switch tested? To check the shift pin remove the gear shift motor and reduction gear and shift it but let go of the tool to see if it returns by itself. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jeepwm69 7,719 Posted September 24, 2021 3 hours ago, quadjunkie454 said: Correct I definitely found neutral and one forward gear. Won’t go past that and it feels like the shift shaft is binding I would say that a pin is broke. that thread describes exactly what I’m experiencing, major tear down it says. awesome now we’re getting somewhere, I am so thankful thank you. Job is not done yet Well before you tear into it, make sure it's mechanical. If it is, you can remove the side covers/footwells, stand the bike on the rear rack, then remove the front engine cover. Let's the oil drain to the back of the motor, and you can work on it standing up with the engine still in the frame. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quadjunkie454 9 Posted September 25, 2021 (edited) the thread you posted about jeep describes the issue perfectly. yes i use the wrench to go from N to 1st/2nd there's a definite shift, Display is somtimes showing a gear sometimes showing --. i let go of the tool and it feels like it does not return to center or "rachet" as toodeep describes to grab the next tooth, the gear display is doing the same thing. It bangs HARD into reverse with the Reverse handle and the shift buttons, i only get a N 1st 2nd shift somtimes with the button until it locks up no i did not check the shifter switch thats the gray plug. i could not understand the instructions laid out in the manual plus talking to the guy today, he says "oh that pin prolly broke again!! frick im going to go into the front cover as jeep describes, not the rear cover correct? Edited September 25, 2021 by quadjunkie454 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jeepwm69 7,719 Posted September 25, 2021 9 hours ago, quadjunkie454 said: the thread you posted about jeep describes the issue perfectly. yes i use the wrench to go from N to 1st/2nd there's a definite shift, Display is somtimes showing a gear sometimes showing --. i let go of the tool and it feels like it does not return to center or "rachet" as toodeep describes to grab the next tooth, the gear display is doing the same thing. It bangs HARD into reverse with the Reverse handle and the shift buttons, i only get a N 1st 2nd shift somtimes with the button until it locks up no i did not check the shifter switch thats the gray plug. i could not understand the instructions laid out in the manual plus talking to the guy today, he says "oh that pin prolly broke again!! frick im going to go into the front cover as jeep describes, not the rear cover correct? Correct, you’ll have to pull the front cover. It’s easiest if you remove the foot wells and get as much room in front of the engine as possible (by removing things) and then stand it up on the rear rack. They will stand up on the rear rack and rear wheels sticking straight up in the air. Unhook wires on the valve body and be careful not to break the plugs off of the valve body as they are pricey. If I recall correctly you’ll have to unhook the radiator lines as well. Clamp them shut and tuck them up out of the way. Then you can remove the front cover and you should be able to see what you’re looking for. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites