Bluezulu49 99 Posted December 9, 2019 Turbo took the TRX300 away for the weekend to do some visiting and treecutting. On Saturday he rang me to say that the quad was refusing to start on the starter. Pressing the start button results in a loud click from the starter solenoid under the seat. The quad will start on the kick starter. He came back last evening but he was late and the weather was very windy so we left it in his van until this evening. He demonstrated the click and I suspected that the brushes in the starter motor were worn. We loosened the two retaining bolts but could not free the starter. So we undid the five bolts on the starting gear cover protector. As I loosened the bolts some white oil dripped out so it looks like some water had gotten into the engine. Once we got this cover off we were able to disconnect the starter. When we got it apart we found that one of the brushes was worn out and the other was quite worn. I bought a new starter motor repair kit this evening and should have it in about a week. I am wondering if the water in the oil is likely to be getting in through the starting gear cover protector as the gasket was pretty bad. Turbo says he did not travel through water which was deeper than a tyre depth. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shadetree 5,969 Posted December 9, 2019 i'm sure it was sunk in deep water at one point or another before you got your hands on it ?, this is why when I take a project on ?, I split every engine , clean it out very well, then put them back together, no water, no trash, no metal, anything will be left inside the motor. this is also a good time to inspect for any damage to any parts inside the engine. for great starters ?, I buy mine from D&B electrical , very good, nice prices, 1 yr warranty. still running a D&B starter on my '89 trx350D from 10 years ago !. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
toodeep 1,759 Posted December 9, 2019 It's just condensation that builds up and has no where to go. In the past we would drill a little hole in the case so it would slowly drain back into the motor where it can evaporate like it's suppose to through the breather. I've never seen a problem with the gears not getting enough oil to lubricate them with that hole there. On those 5 bolts you removed the bottom one is just a touch shorter than the top 2. If they are mixed up you will get a slight oil leak. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fishfiles 20,147 Posted December 9, 2019 Did you check the air box for water , I say air box cause I think you'll got a 3rd gen ( 99 ) and the crankcase vent hose goes right to the air box , but on the second gens the crankcase vent hose is tee'ed and has a flapper valve on the bottom of the tee and is really looow , t"y"re deep is deep enough to get water splashed up in the air box snorkel ---- Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bluezulu49 99 Posted December 9, 2019 Just now, toodeep said: It's just condensation that builds up and has no where to go. In the past we would drill a little hole in the case so it would slowly drain back into the motor where it can evaporate like it's suppose to through the breather. I've never seen a problem with the gears not getting enough oil to lubricate them with that hole there. On those 5 bolts you removed the bottom one is just a touch shorter than the top 2. If they are mixed up you will get a slight oil leak. Condensation seems to be a likely culprit ok as the water was high in the engine. When I took the starter cover off I could see that the lower engine oil was as clear as it was when we changed it. Since then the motor has moved probably less than 20 miles. The bolts were in the correct places ok, two long ones in the centre, two short ones in the top right corner and the shortest one bottom left. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bluezulu49 99 Posted December 9, 2019 (edited) 1 minute ago, Fishfiles said: Did you check the air box for water , I say air box cause I think you'll got a 3rd gen ( 99 ) and the crankcase vent hose goes right to the air box , but on the second gens the crankcase vent hose is tee'ed and has a flapper valve on the bottom of the tee and is really looow , t"y"re deep is deep enough to get water splashed up in the air box snorkel ---- Will check this tomorrow and report back. Edited December 9, 2019 by Bluezulu49 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
retro 4,071 Posted December 9, 2019 My Rancher used to condense water into the oil up high behind the starter motor too. A homebuilt fan control unit solved that problem by allowing the motor oil to get hot enough to boil those milky films away. I don't think that moisture does any real harm. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fishfiles 20,147 Posted December 9, 2019 Do you'll have the gasket on the starter gear cover , I think it is not only acts as a sealing gasket but also as a shim ---------- what about the condition of the oring at the nose of the starter or the o-ring on the plug on the starter gear cover 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fishfiles 20,147 Posted December 9, 2019 Looking back at the starter pics , I think I would get another starter there is a deep groove cut into it 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
retro 4,071 Posted December 9, 2019 Yup, it looks like the commutator was eroded/arced away by those worn out brushes. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fishfiles 20,147 Posted December 9, 2019 I have seen them at the starter shop put it in a lathe and take a cut off to straight up a bad spot , but it looks so deep there won't be much left --- it will most likely work as it is , with a emery paper buffing Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Goober 1,555 Posted December 10, 2019 (edited) I have one looks just like that—a mitsuba sm-8. I took it to a battery/starter shop and had the armature “lathed.” It turns backward now. I’ve heard the polarity of the magnets can be changed but i have to wonder if I’m not assembling correctly Edited December 10, 2019 by Goober Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
toodeep 1,759 Posted December 10, 2019 I've put them in the drill press and used a flat file to true them up again. @Goober are you sure you got the correct brushes? If the positve and negative brushes are swapped they will turn backwards (seen it plenty of times on the old 350s). Same with the positive and negative cables that go to it. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fishfiles 20,147 Posted December 10, 2019 I am not really a old school 350D guy , but don't the 350D engine spin the opposite direction than say a 300 , I have read where guys have to have a reverse ground cam made for the 350D head on a 300 engine as the 350 OEM cam spins the wrong way ----so if that is the case then the starter needs to spin the opposite way as well ??? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
toodeep 1,759 Posted December 10, 2019 That's correct. On the old 350 they would accidentally get 250 brushes so it made it turn backwards to the way it was suppose to. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shadetree 5,969 Posted December 10, 2019 12 hours ago, toodeep said: I've put them in the drill press and used a flat file to true them up again. @Goober are you sure you got the correct brushes? If the positve and negative brushes are swapped they will turn backwards (seen it plenty of times on the old 350s). Same with the positive and negative cables that go to it. I know for a fact, if you hook the battery cables up backwards from battery ?, the starter will turn backwards on the old trx350 fourtrax's, been there, done that..lol. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shadetree 5,969 Posted December 10, 2019 5 hours ago, Fishfiles said: I am not really a old school 350D guy , but don't the 350D engine spin the opposite direction than say a 300 , I have read where guys have to have a reverse ground cam made for the 350D head on a 300 engine as the 350 OEM cam spins the wrong way ----so if that is the case then the starter needs to spin the opposite way as well ??? I mentioned to him, its posb he got a trx300 starter in it from the other owner, your correct, the trx350's ( old school ) does turn opposite of the trx300's from what i've seen ?, or i'm older than I thought, and just pure blind ?!..lol. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bluezulu49 99 Posted December 11, 2019 (edited) Took the day off yesterday. This morning I had a look at the air filter housing and it was bone dry and dusty so I think this is likely not the source of the water in the oil. Given that our relative humidity on the east coast of Ireland has been over 95% for the last few weeks I think condensation is the most likely source. Turbo was in the even wetter south west last weekend. I took the starter apart again and mounted it in my Wolfcraft drill attachment lathe which I acquired from my neighbour some years ago when he was clearing out a deceased friends house. I started working on the commutator at the drills lowest speed with 240 grit sandpaper, on to 360, 400 and finally 600 grade. This seems to have worked quite well as the worn marks are no longer evident and there is still plenty of copper left on the commutator. Pictures attached. I notice that the final picture is not very sharp so I will take another when I am carrying out final assembly. Edited December 11, 2019 by Bluezulu49 Duplicate finished comm picture. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shadetree 5,969 Posted December 11, 2019 from the looks of those brushes ?, that one is dead !, time for a new brush rebuild kit. for what it cost for a good rebuild kit ( besides china ! ), you can almost buy a starter from D&B electrical here. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
toodeep 1,759 Posted December 11, 2019 You can use an small screw driver or pick to clean the grooves out on it. It looks good to me. The rebuild kit will get you going again. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bluezulu49 99 Posted December 11, 2019 16 minutes ago, toodeep said: You can use an small screw driver or pick to clean the grooves out on it. It looks good to me. The rebuild kit will get you going again. I used a plastic bristle brush in the dremel to clean up after I took the picture. Now reassembled so all the pieces are in the right place. Brush kit was posted in the UK yesterday so we should be good to go next week. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bluezulu49 99 Posted December 11, 2019 5 hours ago, shadetree said: from the looks of those brushes ?, that one is dead !, time for a new brush rebuild kit. for what it cost for a good rebuild kit ( besides china ! ), you can almost buy a starter from D&B electrical here. Hi Shade. If we were not in the middle of our shooting season, one of our main usage times for the quad, we would consider buying a D&B starter but our experience with delivery from the USA is, sadly, very poor as it takes more than a week to get from supplier to whatever international gateway is used to send items here. It can then take up to three weeks to arrive on our doorstep. This might be acceptable if the transport cost was trivial but it is not. D&B quote $41.03 for the starter but $69.00 for delivery here. What would happen then is that because the cost of the item plus postage is greater than €23.00, Value Added Tax at 23% is levied here on the cost of the item plus postage. The delivering company then charges us an extra €12.00 for collecting the VAT. In the case of the starter our charge from D&B would be US$111.03 or about €100.12. The VAT would then be €23.69 plus €12 for collection = €135.81 or about US$150.60, more than three times the price you guys pay over there. I did try to source a kit here but the cost was €30.00 for the points unit alone or €50 for the rebuild kit. There would be a courier charge of €8.00 for delivery This makes it a no brainer to buy a "premium refurbishment kit" from the UK. We bought the one pictured below. Because I had it on my watch list on Ebay they offered me a small reduction and I got it for £14.39 for the parts and £9.86 delivery. This cost me €17.78 plus €12.19 or €29.97. This equals roughly US$33.23. As the UK is still in the EU there is no duty or VAT to be levied and in addition we can expect delivery in about a week. ( It can sometimes be quicker. I bought a new Snowbee fly rod in Plymouth, England on last Friday and it arrived here today). We await the outcome of the British election tomorrow with bated breath as if they vote for Boris and exit the EU there will, in all likleyhood, be new tariffs and VAT to be paid and we will have to source our online stuff elsewhere such as CMSNL in Holland. But their postal charge even for the smallest item is €19.50. So to sum up Cost of a new starter from USA €135.81. Cost of a refurb kit here €58.00 Cost of a refurb kit from UK €29.97 I have had to do this type of calculation for every item I bought for the quad since Turbo bought it. I did find a repair kit in the USA for about $10.00 but it cost €38.00 to ship it here and it would have been subject to VAT here on arrival. Do you guys in the USA have to pay a lot of money for postage?. I notice D&B offer free delivery over there. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shadetree 5,969 Posted December 11, 2019 last starter I bought from d&b was shipped free, but that was awhile back. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bluezulu49 99 Posted December 19, 2019 The brush repair kit arrived yesterday so I re-assembled the starter. The bush in the inboard end appeared to be ok with little or no slop so I left it even though I had a new one. The oil seal in the outboard end was perished so I drove out the bearing with my trusty gutter bolt, replaced the seal and put the old bearing back in. ( The needle bearing in the kit did not fit) The outboard O ring that fits between the starter and the crankcase was perished so I replaced it too together with the two rubber seals for the main body. It rained cats and dogs all day yesterday here with gale force winds so I left the quad after I had assembled the starter. Today I put the starter back in having first taken off the starter cover. I pushed the starter in with difficulty as the new O ring made it very stiff. Initially I had it in too far and could not get the cover on. A bit of judicious levering with a flat screwdriver got it into position so I bolted it to the top of the crankcase. Once that was done I put the starter cover on. We have bought a new gasket for this cover but it appears that it is not in stock in Holland as the estimated delivery date is 6th January 2020. Having tightened the five bolts in the cover I attached the positive lead, reconnected the battery and tried the starter button. Unusually the quad required half choke and started. It will now start every time on the button so Turbo and I are both happy. Pictures of brush kit and assembled starter attached. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
F250 guy 107 Posted February 9, 2020 On 12/9/2019 at 4:05 PM, shadetree said: i'm sure it was sunk in deep water at one point or another before you got your hands on it ?, this is why when I take a project on ?, I split every engine , clean it out very well, then put them back together, no water, no trash, no metal, anything will be left inside the motor. this is also a good time to inspect for any damage to any parts inside the engine. for great starters ?, I buy mine from D&B electrical , very good, nice prices, 1 yr warranty. still running a D&B starter on my '89 trx350D from 10 years ago !. Not the aftermarket Chinese junk? I'm thinking about replacing my starter as my armeture didn't look good last time I had it apart 10 years ago. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites