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dadhustle

'01 350 ES, so many new parts, won't start

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Posted (edited)

Hi there, I hopeful for some guidance from what looks to be a great community.

We've bought a used, hard-ridden '01 350 es 2x4. When we bought, you could only pull start; some shady stuff had been done all through it.

We have replaced:

motor top end (new)
lower end (used)
wiring harness (used)

angle position sensor
battery/solenoid (new)
e-shift, start harness (new)

We can get her pull-started, but really tight pull.. really tight
pushing start button, we only get a solenoid click .. battery good
can mechanically shift all gears w/the emergency shifter 1-5 and reverse
push button shift does nothing -we don't even hear the shift motor trying
shift motor is good; tested direct to battery -shifts freely

I'm down to the ECU, but don't know if this could cause both starting and shifting?

Please help; all my son is asking for his birthday is to get this thing running -two weeks away.. agh.

We are grateful for any guidance.

Edited by dadhustle

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Welcome to the forum glad to see you made it over!

 

Sounds like you might have multiple issues going on

-electric starter not working -check if you have 12v at starter motor connection when starter button pressed, possible faulty solenoid or starter motor

-High compression possibly causing hard pull starting- cam has a decompression mechanism to allow easier starting that may be malfunctioning or valves might be set incorrectly

-Electric shift not working -could be multiple issues-suggest starting with troubleshooting as per service manual flowchart and let us know what you find out

 

Start by downloading Service Manual

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1VocUaF1K4_fDh_SVCaq3Rkc747M58ZQd

 

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Welcome to ATVHonda dadhustle!

 

AKATV have got ya going with great advice. Also check the ground cable coming from the battery where it attaches to the motor above the recoil, and also where that same cable attaches to the frame. Then check the starter motor, you should be able to measure battery voltage on the large starter cable at the starter while the solenoid is activated. If there is battery voltage at the starter with the solenoid engaged then remove the starter motor and test it on the bench. Lets fix one thing at a time.... let us know what you learn as you go.

 

frame-ground.png

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Welcome to ATVHonda !

 

They are hard to pull start , they will back kick and hurt your hand and fingers , so getting  that starter working is a must ----  got to ask , is the solenoid a OEM Honda part , I have bought them cheap Chinese solenoids off e-bay and they were junk , I once bought 3 for $5 each, two didn't start the engine one time , the third I got maybe 6 starts and it burned out -----  I know that solenoid for my 300 is $87 from Honda , which is hard to swallow , but I have found that a 2007 Honda TRX420 solenoid cost $25 , the only difference is the color of the two small trigger wires , if the plug connector doesn't work for the application , it is just a matter of stripping the wire and using connectors 

 

have seen people replace the solenoid and got the wires mixed up when hooking them back up ---  good clean cable connections are a must 

 

be sure the battery is hot , if you don't have a load tester , take the battery to a local auto part that has a tester and have it checked , a battery can have 12 volts but no cranking amps  

 

as far as your ES shifting problem goes , you got the best in @retro helping you along , he is the guru of the ES shift 

 

 

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Man, thank you so much for the great and timely feedback!

 

I will check the starter and report back!

 

Thanks for the tips on the compression.. valves were done without feeler 😕

 

The solenoid is a 'cheap' Amazon version, so I'll definitely pick up an OEM.

 

Birthday in 9 days, I hope to report back soon.

 

Thanks all

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Don't forget to check that the negative ground cable is bolted down to both the motor and the frame. You have replaced the motor so your grounds may be loose or overlooked.... 🙂

 

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45 minutes ago, retro said:

Don't forget to check that the negative ground cable is bolted down to both the motor and the frame. You have replaced the motor so your grounds may be loose or overlooked.... 🙂

 

I had that happen to me , it got all green around the thread where the bolt of the ground strap threaded into the crankcase , starter was spinning over but very slow 

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Posted (edited)

okay, great news.. somewhat embarrassed to admit, but more grateful!

 

The ground connection to the starter had some nylon or paper style washers between the terminal and nut.. removed those and it fired right and reliably so!

*Its idling rough, perhaps old gas, valves previously mentioned -we'll get to that soon.

*the bolt on the starter feel lose, has movement -not sur it should, so starter replacement may be coming.

 

We're down to the e shifting to recap:

  • motor turns w/12 power from battery
  • can mechanically move through all gears (sometimes have to rock her to slip into gear above 2nd... not sure if a factor)
  • new shift angle sensor
  • new shift controls/sub-harness
  • New (used) wiring harness from battery forward
  • gears if shift motor look okay to me, no broken teeth 
  • I do not hear the shift motor trying when hitting the shift buttons
  • dash panel reads all gears, so I assume shift angle is okay??

I welcome any advice, it was such joy to see my son smiling as he started her tonight -I thank you all for your help.

 

w/Gratitude,

RD

 

Edited by dadhustle
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Good job on trouble shooting the electric start

Glad to hear your son is learning to turn a wrench too and is happy with you and his progress so far

You might want to double check all the fuses as well in the battery compartment area also as

I had a no shift issue awhile back and I had overlooked the proper fuse

Keep us up to date and let us know if you get stumped

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Congrats dadhustle!

 

New lets talk about china knockoff replacement parts in case you have any of those on your Rancher? China parts do not work on Honda's. They are completely useless garbage. So I gotta ask ya before we can begin troubleshooting the ES... are there any china knockoffs (ebay, amazon, etc.) on your Rancher?

 

Are the handlebar switches assembly that you replaced OEM Honda? Is the Angle Sensor an OEM Honda part? In event that there are china parts on it, do you still have the original Honda parts?

 

You will need a good battery installed. You'll also need a multimeter to perform a few simple tests. Let us know if you don't have one?

 

First tests, open the fuse box and set your multimeter mode to measure DC volts. There is a fuse index printed inside the fuse box cover, make sure that all of the fuses are plugged in and that each one is the proper amp rating. Each fuse should fit down very snugly in it's blade sockets. There should be no melted plastic or other evidence of overheating inside or around the fuse sockets.

 

Turn the ignition switch on, then touch your black (negative) multimeter lead to a clean frame ground, then with the red (positive) multimeter lead probe on top of each fuse where there are two tiny metal probe test points on each sides of every fuse. Probe on both sides of every fuse. You should see battery voltage on every test point. Pay particular attention to the condition of the 30 amp "Motor" fuse, as that is the main Electric Shift fuse. Make sure that it plugs in snugly into its blade sockets and there is no evidence those fuse sockets have ever overheated.

 

Lets wait for answers to each these questions and your fuse testing results before we continue to diagnose the ES system.

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yea.. about those.  Yep, virtually all parts, except used are ebay/amazon -I do still have all the old, so I'll tinker w/that and test as you outline, this weekend.  -hope to report good word soon.

 

Thanks again,
RD

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OK, lets work with what ya got. Check the fuses and fuse holder sockets as explained above to insure the ES system has power and we'll get started.

 

Do you have a multimeter? You'll need one.

 

First a warning to keep in mind while diagnosing.... do not unplug or plug in any electrical component while the ignition switch is on. Always turn the ignition switch to the off position before disconnecting/connecting harness plugs. Sensitive components like the ECU can get a voltage spike or a current surge and be destroyed if you fail to heed this warning.

 

For all of the ES diagnosis steps you'll need both fenders removed from your Rancher to provide access to harness plugs.

 

Take the china Angle sensor off of the reduction gears cover and put the original Angle sensor (& rubber o-ring) back on it. Do not overtighten any of those bolts on the reduction gears cover. You won't be putting the china angle sensor back on your Rancher because it will never work, so either return it for a refund or throw it in the trash. Odds are the OEM angle sensor is fine, and you'll test it in the following steps.

 

Next verify supply voltages and ground at the ECU connectors. Both of the voltage tests should show battery voltage. Be careful unplugging and plugging in the ECU connectors, the pins on the ECU can get bent if you aren't careful plugging the connectors in straight.... the connectors are very tight and are difficult to press together too, so make sure that the ECU plugs are pushed all of the in when reconnecting the ECU. It takes a lot of force to seat those plugs sometimes....

 

es-supply-voltages.png

 

ecu-ground.png

 

Let us know the results of those tests.

 

Next up is the Angle sensor tests. You must have the OEM Honda sensor installed properly on the reduction gears cover. A china sensor will fail these tests every time.

 

angle-sensor-tests.png

 

Lets pause here while you catch up.... communicate & ask questions as you go so we can help you and share in your fun times. 🙂

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Oooohkay, so we kicked up quite a bit of dust tonight, but not sure what we accomplished or if I was doing some things correctly, be gentle:

 

I pulled the amazon shift/start harness and reconnected the old -I was quickly reminded, the shape its in.. the kill switch is free-flowing, no resistance.  -w/this, I could no longer push start and the shift buttons returned nothing.

 

I pulled the amazon shift position sensor and replaced w/the original.  I quickly noticed this difference in the two; not sure if its material:

image.png

Replacing this yielded nothing so I started w/the multimeter tested as retro outlines above.. this is where I thought I knew what I was doing...

 

When testing for voltage of 22pin connector, I interpreted the ground to be the wire on left... this returned nothing

image.png

truly, meter didn't move.  So I left the green/black probe and touched the other to the post on the starter -it made sense at the time... that returned a 12 reading

I experience the same  nil reading results w/the 5 pin connector and when touching to the starter post, returned a 12 reading

 

Moving onto the continuity testing at the 5pin connector -all good! -audible tone result.


Now onto resistance:

Step 1: returned a reading of 8

Step 2: reading of 11

Step 3: reading of 10

In my mind this doesn't jive w/expected result of up-shift  resistance, but I receive 1.375.. greater than 0.4, feel I did something wrong.

Similarly,  down shift resistance returns 1.25, which is >0.6.. but I'm skeptical

 

Removing the angle sensor and testing again:

Step 2: 9

Step 3: 9

still both are out of bounds, sooooo..

 

I used yet another angle sensor (from the original motor), yielding these results at the connector:

Step 2: 9

Step 3: 9

.. still both, seem out of bounds.  If prior experience wasn't enough, the changes of 3 sensors being bad... I'm doing something wrong.

 

I was skeptical to even share my results; unfortunately, where I'm working.. internet is sketchy, attempts to self-study, iffy.

 

*In none of these situations (when all was connected and attempting to shift), could I even hear the shift motor.

*when shifting mechanically, we have to rock her just a bit to get a shift display reading -this made resistance readings problematic as the results were wildly moving/varying

 

I'm near the point of pulling the es gears, attached a foot shift pedal, at least to get this going by the weekend.  She starts first push button crank and idles well (I think valves need some adjusting, but very happy w/starting and running).

 

Again, I was reluctant to even share my results, but welcome any insight, corrective guidance.

 

Thanks All,

RD

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by dadhustle

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I got nothing.  I went the "pulling the ES gears, attached a foot shift pedal" on the only ES I have (middle kid's 350 Rancher), but @retro and @Melatv can probably get you straightened out if you don't mind taking a lot of readings with that voltmeter.

 

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Posted (edited)

Thank you @jeepwm69, I’ll do whatever is needed and grateful for the help.  Any move to go manual, would just be to try and his the birthday.. would be temporary.  I’ve called all over my local area, no one will help on something “that old”.

 

edit:

 

Oh my.. so I don’t think manual conversion is a speedy option, watching this video.. its a chore.  Seeing the poster remove a ground near the stator, has me wondering if I’m missing a connection.  I had a partner helping me and I don’t recall this.  Again, all appears to work well, except e shift ( and I believe we’ll need a starter, the post feel lose)
 

 

Edited by dadhustle

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Dad , I know someone that did the swop from ES to Foot Shift on a 350 , not only is it a bit of work , but you don't want to have to buy all the parts to do it new from Honda , ( if they are even still available ) , you really need to find a parts bike to make it feasible 

 

 

 

Personally I don't have any ES bikes , except for parts bikes , but have heard , that you don't want to put an emergency  shifter lever or the lever that some sell to make a ES a foot shift bike full time , because the shift shaft can't handle it and will break , that is why the shaft has to be changed to do it right  

 

Retro and Melatv are the gurus of the wiring harness 

 

There is another option, there is a kit out there that eliminates the wiring and components of the ES curcuit and it is a plug and play wiring harness , cost $129 , quick and easy install , as long as your shift motor is good then you are good to go , here is the link 

 

https://hondaesshiftkit.com/products/00-06-rancher-350-es/

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Okay, so re-working my numbers, based on studying of multimeter use 😕

 

I believe the position sensors are bad, but all three?

 

The downshift resistance seems to be the issue, ranging from 0.72-0.8

The upshift resistance ranges from 0.8-0.89

Readings at the terminals are within this range

 

Based on my research of the starter & ground, I think the voltage testing is okay?

 

I'm going back tonight to try readings again, I'll re-check all electrical connections, terminals.

 

Thank you @Fishfiles for the bypass link; I'm leaning that direction, if I can't get this right soon.

 

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I apologize for disappearing on ya dadhustle, got a breakdown at home that I've been working on. I'll be back late tonight with more some comprehensive diagnosis suggestions. Hang in there....

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2 hours ago, retro said:

I apologize for disappearing on ya dadhustle, got a breakdown at home that I've been working on. I'll be back late tonight with more some comprehensive diagnosis suggestions. Hang in there....

No apologies!  Thank you and wishing speedy fix up at home

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Okay, so I feel like it was a good night.

 

Still no ES, but have traced it back to the ECU, I think.  What we did:

 

disconnected 5 wire harness from ECU

jumper from orange and green wire on harness to battery w/the key off

shift motor fired and shifted gears (this was verified by removing power to motor (which was just a moment) and turned on key, verified movement 1-3 (we connected power more than once)

 

Is it still possible this is the shift position sensor, something else or am I looking at an ECU issue? -verified all pins are straight and clean.

 

Brought her home.. changing oil, gonna fire up tomorrow, put in first and let him tote around the yard - birthday wish realized 🙂

 

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You guys really are great...I learn something every time I’m on here, and usually learn multiple things! 

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Thanks for being patient @dadhustle! My little breakdown is back up and running now, so I read back through this thread and caught up just now. I noticed a couple of your tests don't look right, so it appears to me that the two battery power wires and the ground wire supplying the ECM may not have been verified yet? This is the first comment that I question:

 

Quote

When testing for voltage of 22pin connector, I interpreted the ground to be the wire on left... this returned nothing

image.png

truly, meter didn't move.  So I left the green/black probe and touched the other to the post on the starter -it made sense at the time... that returned a 12 reading

I experience the same  nil reading results w/the 5 pin connector and when touching to the starter post, returned a 12 reading

 

Moving onto the continuity testing at the 5pin connector -all good! -audible tone result.

 

You said, "When testing for voltage of 22pin connector, I interpreted the ground to be the wire on left... this returned nothing".

The Black with Red stripe wire on the left in your photo is not an ECM power supply wire, it is the wire providing the common for the Angle sensor and the UP & Down shift switches on the handlebar. There isn't suppose to be any voltage on the Black/Red wire.... and it appears that you may have mistaken that BL/R wire for the Black with Green stripe wire that you intended to measure battery voltage on? It is unclear what happened after that so lets start over.

 

Lets do the power & ground tests again. I'll post the wiring diagram so that you have a reference for wire colors as well, below these tests:

 

Quote

 

es-supply-voltages.png

 

ecu-ground.png

 

00-02-rancher-te-fe-wiring.png

 

5 hours ago, dadhustle said:

Okay, so I feel like it was a good night.

 

Still no ES, but have traced it back to the ECU, I think.  What we did:

 

disconnected 5 wire harness from ECU

jumper from orange and green wire on harness to battery w/the key off

shift motor fired and shifted gears (this was verified by removing power to motor (which was just a moment) and turned on key, verified movement 1-3 (we connected power more than once)

 

Is it still possible this is the shift position sensor, something else or am I looking at an ECU issue? -verified all pins are straight and clean.

 

It appears that you have tested the shift motor by applying battery voltage with jumper wires. You proved the shift motor works, but we don't have any reason to believe that the Angle sensor or the ECM are bad yet.

 

We need to start over from the beginning and verify that the ECM has positive battery voltage to both wires and a proper ground. Let us know what you learn from those tests. Once the ECM power and ground are either verified working or repaired, we'll test both of the shift switches.

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6 hours ago, dadhustle said:

 

 

Brought her home.. changing oil, gonna fire up tomorrow, put in first and let him tote around the yard - birthday wish realized 🙂

 

That's a great birthday present , I can remember my first Honda a 1971 CT70 MiniTrail , it went to smoking and my grandfather bought a manual and me and him too it apart and rebuilt the upper , think that was what started me wanting to be a mechanic  ----  

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Posted (edited)

@retro thank you for the details.  I have tested power again today, using the frame ground to left of the ICM (above right front wheel, under fender).  Both 22 and 5 pin connectors read 12v,  the measurement was fickle, which I thought weird,  so disconnected the ground, cleaned the frame and terminal w/a wire brush.  -both are reading 12v.

 

Awaiting further instructions, thank you Sir.

Edited by dadhustle
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