2004 Forman 450 ES

[pavlakt 0]

Hi all, new member. Just picked up this quad, runs great and for the most part all is good. It will shift into R 1,2 fine, 3RD has issues, lots of rattling noises. Sometimes I can get it in when stopped and then go right into 4-5 no issues. This is all by foot shift. The es was broke and not used by the PO. I did check to see if the reduction gears were removed and they were not, so I did. Also, have tried to adjust the clutch but I cannot turn the screw after loosening the nut, it seems stuck though it'll move freely in and out.

Any other ideas for me? I got it cheap, but I don't want to soak a ton more in it.

Tom

[jeepwm69 6,601]

Welcome aboard. 

 

Not what you want to hear, but you're probably going to have to open her up and put transmission gears in it.  The ES transmission gears in the 450's are different than the footshift, and if you convert a footshift to ES and then hammer on the shifter it can break things in the transmission.

 

If you're handy with a wrench, you'd mostly just be out time in replacing the transmission.  Used complete transmissions are under $100 on ebay.  Take the engine apart, replace the gear or gears, and put it back together again.

 

If you just picked it up, you'd have the added benefit of knowing what you have when you're done.  Clean out the engine while you have it apart, put in a new timing chain, and you'd have an engine that should last a looooonnng time.

 

That said, tearing one down can be intimidating if you haven't done it before.  We can walk you through it here if you want to attempt it. 

 

This is a teardown on a 420 Rancher.  There are minor differences in the 450 engines, but they are more or less laid out the same.

 

 

[bcsman 1,311]

@Fishfiles has talked about a bypass harness for ES problems and I think someone on here has put one on. Ypu don't have to remove anything just connect the harness in and depending on your issues I believe it allows you to use the ES functions.  Maybe someone can chime in for more info.

 

And by the way welcome to our forum, there are a ton of 450's here so help will be around....

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11 minutes ago, bcsman said:

@Fishfiles has talked about a bypass harness for ES problems and I think someone on here has put one on. Ypu don't have to remove anything just connect the harness in and depending on your issues I believe it allows you to use the ES functions.  Maybe someone can chime in for more info.

 

And by the way welcome to our forum, there are a ton of 450's here so help will be around....

Thanks for the reply - I've already removed the gears from the ES motor...so I dont think a harness will fix this. 

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34 minutes ago, jeepwm69 said:

Welcome aboard. 

 

Not what you want to hear, but you're probably going to have to open her up and put transmission gears in it.  The ES transmission gears in the 450's are different than the footshift, and if you convert a footshift to ES and then hammer on the shifter it can break things in the transmission.

 

If you're handy with a wrench, you'd mostly just be out time in replacing the transmission.  Used complete transmissions are under $100 on ebay.  Take the engine apart, replace the gear or gears, and put it back together again.

 

If you just picked it up, you'd have the added benefit of knowing what you have when you're done.  Clean out the engine while you have it apart, put in a new timing chain, and you'd have an engine that should last a looooonnng time.

 

That said, tearing one down can be intimidating if you haven't done it before.  We can walk you through it here if you want to attempt it. 

 

This is a teardown on a 420 Rancher.  There are minor differences in the 450 engines, but they are more or less laid out the same.

 

 

Yep - your right not what I wanted to hear. I assume its a motor off repair? looks that way. Ugh, maybe I didnt get it cheap enough.

[pavlakt 0]

38 minutes ago, jeepwm69 said:

Welcome aboard. 

 

Not what you want to hear, but you're probably going to have to open her up and put transmission gears in it.  The ES transmission gears in the 450's are different than the footshift, and if you convert a footshift to ES and then hammer on the shifter it can break things in the transmission.

 

 

 

 

Wonder about this.... they converted ES to Footshift without removing the reduction gears in the ES motor. Does that make a difference?

[jeepwm69 6,601]

The reduction gears left in there will certainly make it harder to shift, as you'd be turning the shift motor every time you shift, but  usually when one gear is causing you problems, it's due to damage to that particular gear.

 

In the case of the 450ES's, from what I understand, they designed them to shift easier, which would be a design that wouldn't be as robust. 

 

I'm in my first 450 engine now, and it's a footshift/S but some of the guys here like @shadetree, @Fishfiles, and @toodeep might be able to tell you what is different in more specifics.  That said, the gear part numbers in the schematics on the 450S and the 450ES are definitely different.

 

Looking at the schematics, it looks like the ES has "dogs" on the gears while the S has holes in the gear that the corresponding gear teeth engage.

 

Part 11 and 17 are third and fifth gears

https://www.partzilla.com/catalog/honda/atv/2004/trx450fe-a-fourtrax-foreman-es/transmission-trx450fe

 

Now look at the same parts in the footshift diagram

 

https://www.partzilla.com/catalog/honda/atv/2004/trx450fm-a-fourtrax-foreman-s/transmission-trx450fm

 

See how there are holes in the gears on the footshift vs dogs on the ES gears?

 

The dogs on the 05-08 500 Foreman's first gear were weak and would strip.  They changed the design in 09 to be stronger.  Pics here of that particular gear.   I'm guessing something similar is going on with your engine.  What exactly does it do in 3rd gear?  Make a popping noise but not pull well?

 

 

 

 

[pavlakt 0]

@jeepwm69 - What exactly does it do in 3rd gear?  Make a popping noise but not pull well?

 

When moving and trying to shift, the foot lever bounces up and down real fast, like its skipping over the gear or the gear is moving to fast. Now, sitting still, I can shift into 1,2 and 3....take off slow and then go to 4-5. 

 

When trying to shift into 3rd - I can look down (left side) at the shaft going to the front and its shaking back and forth....hope that makes sense.

[Fishfiles 17,097]

Hi.  Welcome to the forum. My guess is a loose bolt on the plate at the end of the shift drum 

[toodeep 1,715]

I would stand the machine on it's rear rack (shut off gas) and remove the front engine cover. It needs removed to loosen the adjuster screw anyway and that way you can inspect the shift plates and the bolt on the shift drum.

 

The 450 electric shift had gears designed like the newer 500 as far as engagement dogs. The foot shift models was the old big dogs like all the older machines.

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1 hour ago, Fishfiles said:

Hi.  Welcome to the forum. My guess is a loose bolt on the plate at the end of the shift drum 

Is this something I can fix? just pull the front cover off...and inspect

[jeepwm69 6,601]

14 minutes ago, pavlakt said:

Is this something I can fix? just pull the front cover off...and inspect

 

Yep, if that's the problem it can be done by just pulling the front cover.

I would stand the machine up on it's rear end (they will stand straight up on the rear rack) and remove the front cover, see what you see.

 

That way you won't have to drain the oil, and it won't make a mess.

 

I'd clean the machine well first with a pressure washer (so dirt doesn't fall down in your open engine after you remove the front cover) and either drain the gas or shut it off and cap the vent line coming out of the gas cap.

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8 minutes ago, jeepwm69 said:

 

Yep, if that's the problem it can be done by just pulling the front cover.

I would stand the machine up on it's rear end (they will stand straight up on the rear rack) and remove the front cover, see what you see.

 

That way you won't have to drain the oil, and it won't make a mess.

 

I'd clean the machine well first with a pressure washer (so dirt doesn't fall down in your open engine after you remove the front cover) and either drain the gas or shut it off and cap the vent line coming out of the gas cap.

Ok, I can do that easy enough. Next question - Could there be something else that would require a full engine off fix? I ask this because I have a guy that can fix it...issue is he'll want to do the Piston, Rings and wrist pin as the same time...so basically a rebuild..then get to the trans and fix whatever is wrong there. He's at like 1200 for that. But seems like wasted money since it dont need rebuilt...unless there is a reason I cannot fix it from the front cover.

[jeepwm69 6,601]

25 minutes ago, pavlakt said:

Ok, I can do that easy enough. Next question - Could there be something else that would require a full engine off fix? I ask this because I have a guy that can fix it...issue is he'll want to do the Piston, Rings and wrist pin as the same time...so basically a rebuild..then get to the trans and fix whatever is wrong there. He's at like 1200 for that. But seems like wasted money since it dont need rebuilt...unless there is a reason I cannot fix it from the front cover.

 

I'd pull the cover yourself. 

 

No need to do the top end if it runs well.  Were I going into that engine for transmission work, I'd likely do the top end while I had it all apart, but if it's simply that bolt on the front of the shift drum and it runs good with no smoke, no need to touch the top end.

 

I'm a big believer in the MAW (might as well) IF I have to tear an engine all the way down, but if it's something simple that doesn't require a full tear down, no need to fix things that aren't broke....

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21 hours ago, Fishfiles said:

Hi.  Welcome to the forum. My guess is a loose bolt on the plate at the end of the shift drum 

I  assume this is a fairly obvious bolt when the front case is cracked open? Just tighten and torque it?

[toodeep 1,715]

It sits down behind the clutches and shift linkages. It's not that hard to get to but it won't jump out at you and say here I am. If it is loose it will need cleaned, loctite and torqued..

[jeepwm69 6,601]

It's the bolt that goes in the middle of that star shaped bit. 

 

1st pic shows where it is, 2nd shows what it will look like when you pull the cover off/ what it will look like with all the other linkage bits installed.

 

 

 

 

[Fishfiles 17,097]

 

#30 is the bolt I was thinking of 

 

#19 and #20 are the shift shafts , one is for ES/FE models , the other for FM/S models