Front Brakes on 2003 Honda Rancher

[Bossdaddy 207]

I'm working on the front brakes of a 2003 Rancher 350. Brakes have not been used for years. I've got everything complete but can't get fluid out of the master cylinder and down to either bleeder port. MC seems to be pumping but not moving any fluid. I can put my finger over the pressure line hole and pump MC and can feel pressure on finger and even squirts when finger is removed slowly. I have had MC slow to build pressure, but this is ridicules. Maybe I'm not bleeding them right, it's been a while since I messed with front brakes. Any help would be appreciated. 

[toodeep 1,712]

Use a pair of pliers and "pinch" the line as close to the MC as possible while pumping it up.It should force the fluid through and build up pressure.

[Bossdaddy 207]

toodeep, thanks for the quick response. I pinched the line and it built pressure immediately. So I just need to pinch it enough to build pressure and let it off slowly. Not really sure how I get the pressure on down the line. I'm slow don't quit me now. 

Edited March 29, 2022 by Bossdaddy
spelling

[shadetree 5,429]

29 minutes ago, Bossdaddy said:

toodeep, thanks for the quick response. I pinched the line and it built pressure immediately. So I just need to pinch it enough to build pressure and let it off slowly. Not really sure how I get the pressure on down the line. I'm slow don't quit me now. 

if you went through all wheel cylinders to make sure you have them free'ed up ?, then next make sure the adjuster star wheels are not seized ?, one side of these left hand threads, other is right hand threads. once all this is working , adjust the brake shoes all the way out until the drum barely catches, then back the star wheels off a click or two. then use the vise grips near the master brake cylinder, pinch off the line enough to build pressure on lever, slowly ease off the vise grips just enough to let the brake fluid pressure from the lever flow through the line, when lever is built up enough, then open bleeder valve at left front side, close bleeder valve, let go of brake lever, rinse and repeat until you no longer need the vise grips on the brake line.

[Bossdaddy 207]

shadetree, I followed instructions and got the left side bled and working right. The right side won't work, I may have blockage on the right side but with blockage you would think it would build pressure. I don't know, but I will continue messing with it. Any more advice will be welcomed.

[Goober 1,547]

Did you disassemble and clean the wheel cylinders? I would Disco and disassemble the wheel cylinders on the one side and purge the line 

Edited March 30, 2022 by Goober

[Bossdaddy 207]

Goober, I did disassemble the brake cylinders, they are freed up and operable. I can't get any fluid to the banjo bolt at the cylinders.

[Fishfiles 17,036]

30 minutes ago, Bossdaddy said:

Goober, I did disassemble the brake cylinders, they are freed up and operable. I can't get any fluid to the banjo bolt at the cylinders.

I have seen the small i.d. hole thru the metal fittings inside the rubber brake hoses get rusty inside and block the flow 

[Bossdaddy 207]

I will definitely look at all the lines going to the right side. I guess what I don’t understand is if I have blockage why can’t I build pressure? I know I have pressure to the left side every time I operate the handle I can hear the springs on my brake shoes expand as they should. That being said there is pressure to the t-block and pressure going out the left side of the t- block I will check if there is any pressure/fluid coming out the right side in  the morning.

[shadetree 5,429]

2 hours ago, Bossdaddy said:

I will definitely look at all the lines going to the right side. I guess what I don’t understand is if I have blockage why can’t I build pressure? I know I have pressure to the left side every time I operate the handle I can hear the springs on my brake shoes expand as they should. That being said there is pressure to the t-block and pressure going out the left side of the t- block I will check if there is any pressure/fluid coming out the right side in  the morning.

no pressure or fluid to right side tells me the line is blocked ?, or you have air in the line ?. most times..if you can not get lever pressure ?, it tells me air is in the line/lines !. i've done a tone of brake work, on some where ppl worked it for weeks/months..and could not get the brakes working ?, well...my system works 100% of the time i do brakes, has never let me down yet.

[Fishfiles 17,036]

7 hours ago, Bossdaddy said:

I will definitely look at all the lines going to the right side. I guess what I don’t understand is if I have blockage why can’t I build pressure? I know I have pressure to the left side every time I operate the handle I can hear the springs on my brake shoes expand as they should. That being said there is pressure to the t-block and pressure going out the left side of the t- block I will check if there is any pressure/fluid coming out the right side in  the morning.

Maybe your clogged at the tee and fluid can only go to one side --- use a pair of pinch pliers and block the side your getting flow from now , right at the tee ---- I didn't mention it , but have seen brake hoses on automotive applications get a flap of rubber deteriorate on the inside and flop over and block the flow 

[toodeep 1,712]

That's what I would try. Pinch off the good side so you can force the fluid to the bad side. Loosen or remove the line at the brake and start pumping until you have a lever that won't move anymore or fluid is flowing.

[Bossdaddy 207]

Thanks to all you guys for the help. I used a little from all of your advice and found the problem, it was the banjo bolt at the end of the brake line on the right side, completely stopped up. trust me it took a while to open it up but I have fluid. I've adjusted the shoes up until they touch and I'm still having trouble building pressure at the handle. I've bled out two reservoirs of fluid so I don't believe it has air in the system. The brakes operate great but just haven't got any pedal so to speak. Any ideas? 

[jeepwm69 6,581]

Sounds

1 hour ago, Bossdaddy said:

Thanks to all you guys for the help. I used a little from all of your advice and found the problem, it was the banjo bolt at the end of the brake line on the right side, completely stopped up. trust me it took a while to open it up but I have fluid. I've adjusted the shoes up until they touch and I'm still having trouble building pressure at the handle. I've bled out two reservoirs of fluid so I don't believe it has air in the system. The brakes operate great but just haven't got any pedal so to speak. Any ideas? 

 

Same problem I'm having with the TRX250A I'm working on.  I think I still have air in the lines, but haven't messed with it in a few days.  Waiting on a 2 jaw puller so that I can get the drums off and adjust the brakes before bleeding again.

[shadetree 5,429]

1 hour ago, Bossdaddy said:

Thanks to all you guys for the help. I used a little from all of your advice and found the problem, it was the banjo bolt at the end of the brake line on the right side, completely stopped up. trust me it took a while to open it up but I have fluid. I've adjusted the shoes up until they touch and I'm still having trouble building pressure at the handle. I've bled out two reservoirs of fluid so I don't believe it has air in the system. The brakes operate great but just haven't got any pedal so to speak. Any ideas? 

then the wheel cylinders are seized up on right side. remove the brake drum, work the lever, does the brake shoes move then ?, if not ?, then the wheel cylinders are seized , there is a trick to get them out, takes a grease gun, and a zerk grease fitting, screw the zerk into the cylinder , either hole it will fit in ?, use a metric bolt if you need to stop up the other hole ?, or leave the bleeder valve in it if you can ?, use the grease gun to press the piston out of the wheel cylinder, i do this all the time wheel over hauling drum brakes that have never been serviced. also, make sure the tiny return hole in the ,master cylinder is not stopped up ?, you can use a single wire from a wire brush to poke down through the hole to clear it.

[Goober 1,547]

You can get fluid from both bleed screws now?

Even a while after bleeding You might still have air rising into the uppermost bend near the master cylinder.

pull the black rubber puck out of the bottom of the master cylinder. Jiggle the brake lever. You might see bubbles rising from the ports—get that hose level to chase air back to the master cylinder—no more bubbles you can be assured you got it all.

[toodeep 1,712]

Go ride it and ride the brakes (after pumping it up some) and then readjust the brakes. Sometimes the shoes won't line up perfectly and the adjuster side might just be touching but the cylinder side has a gap. Riding the brakes will get them lined up and problem solved. Worth a try,

[Bossdaddy 207]

The brake cylinders are moving on both sides and brakes work just not very strong. I do believe I still got some air, it may take me a while to get it all out. I will try both things shadetree and Goober suggested. We're getting closer.

[Bossdaddy 207]

toodeep, I agree with your idea, I have a lot going on with this thing. It's not rideable right now. I've got another thread coming up in a day or two.

[shadetree 5,429]

16 hours ago, Bossdaddy said:

The brake cylinders are moving on both sides and brakes work just not very strong. I do believe I still got some air, it may take me a while to get it all out. I will try both things shadetree and Goober suggested. We're getting closer.

if all shoes are moving ?, then you just have air trapped in the line. brake shoes must be adjusted all the way out , until they rub on drum, then back the star wheels off a click or two ?, then bleed the brakes.

[Bossdaddy 207]

I probably need to tighten the shoes up a little, once I get where I can ride it, I think I can get the air out and get them adjusted properly.

[shadetree 5,429]

2 hours ago, Bossdaddy said:

I probably need to tighten the shoes up a little, once I get where I can ride it, I think I can get the air out and get them adjusted properly.

tip: adjust the shoes out, rotate the drum around a time or two, adjust the shoes out again..sometimes the drum wears uneven, i use a pry bar wedged between the studs to rotate the drum when i do this.

[Bossdaddy 207]

Good idea, I'll try it. It's getting better air is slowly coming back thru the master cylinder.

[Goober 1,547]

i get my quad frame up on a lift—you can block it up—to get all wheels off ground. If adjusting front brake, you can turn the rear tire on the side you’re adjusting 
 

If your drums are out of round, now is good time to get them turned. I take mine to a local machine shop — they did it for $10 each. Might be a little more for you.

should make shoe adjustment easier.

[Bossdaddy 207]

I may try that. Mine is up on the lift right now, Thanks.