2010 Honda Rancher 420TEA ignition fuse issue.

[jeepwm69 7,613]

Any progress on this one @Mach 1?  I gotta get back out and check out that woman's Foreman with the same problem.

[Mach 1 21]

1 hour ago, jeepwm69 said:

Any progress on this one @Mach 1?  I gotta get back out and check out that woman's Foreman with the same problem.

Please accept my apologies,  its hunting season and getting down to crunch time..BUT, rain coming so tomorrow gonna get on it..got a new multimeter and printed out all of retro test..told him I noticed though I lost my dash display, headlight still worked so definitely a gremlin.

[Mach 1 21]

Oh so confused already, including pics, not sure where components are with wiring, sorry retro, in this pic, which one is stop relay?

[Mach 1 21]

In this pic, is harness disconnected the stop relay??

[Mach 1 21]

I did measure first connector from left, both solid green read continuity,  green / black..nothing. 

 

In resistance,  back/ green..nothing,  already feel retarded..oh, my bad, not a correct statement..challenged.

[jeepwm69 7,613]

I'm not sure where the stop relay is either.  What you have in the pics is the ECU (also called a PGM-FI, which is the computer/ brain of the machine) though.

 

There's a small box with wires going to it back there clipped inside the box behind the ECU that is the EFI relay. 

 

Since that's the only relay I see here, is the EFI relay the same thing as the engine stop relay?  @retro

 

https://www.partzilla.com/catalog/honda/atv/2010/trx420te-a/wire-harness

 

https://www.partzilla.com/product/honda/38580-HP5-601?ref=3312de7c5692b1d94307f75e38a971b17fce4c50

[retro 4,048]

22 hours ago, jeepwm69 said:

Since that's the only relay I see here, is the EFI relay the same thing as the engine stop relay?  @retro

 

Yes, the Fuel pump relay and the Engine stop relay are in one module with an 8p connector.

 

 

[retro 4,048]

I apologize @Mach 1, I have been busy and haven't been on the forums for a couple days so I missed your questions. I have a couple projects I'm working on and one of them, prepping my old Arctic Cat sled for winter, became much bigger than expected once I got it apart and found some rotten rubber boots and rotting fuel line. I only intended to remove and clean the carbs.... routine maintenance stuff. But since I found some rotten stuff I decided to go all in and fix some other things that have been needing fixing too... such as replacing the seat cover that the neighbor's kids two dogs chewed up last winter while I had left the sled at their farm for them to play on... and gonna replace the tail light on it that I broke two years ago when I got it stuck. 

So I will be around the forums only occasionally for a while.

 

On 12/28/2023 at 12:37 PM, Mach 1 said:

In this pic, is harness disconnected the stop relay??

 

As Jeep confirmed, that is the ECU/ECM in your photo. The Engine Stop relay is part of a module that includes the Fuel Pump relay. It has an 8p harness connector with 4 of those 8 wires controlling the Fuel Pump relay inside and the other 4 wires controlling the Engine Stop relay inside.  See the image in the post above...

 

You said that you replaced a relay with an aftermarket part..... let's figure out what that part is Ok? Unplug that part and list the wire colors in it's harness connector so we can identify it before proceeding.

 

I'll be back later....

 

 

[Mach 1 21]

Ok, makes sense now, connector on fuel pump relay is one I should test..thanks.

[retro 4,048]

6 minutes ago, Mach 1 said:

Ok, makes sense now, connector on fuel pump relay is one I should test..thanks.

 

Yeah, but first lets figure out which part you replaced, because it doesn't sound like the Fuel pump/Engine stop relay module.

[Mach 1 21]

16 hours ago, retro said:

 

Yeah, but first lets figure out which part you replaced, because it doesn't sound like the Fuel pump/Engine stop relay module.

In the ECM pic, you see that blue Square sticking up with no connector on it?? Thats the relay I replaced that clicks when you turn on the key.

[Mach 1 21]

Here is part I replaced along with aftermarket coil..Shop replaced IAC, which was weird since I had zero miles on one I put in, initial issue was wouldn't keep running without throttle,  got it back and second ride blew fuse, died and now it sits..thanks

[jeepwm69 7,613]

That appears to be the fuel pump/ EFI injection relay.

 

My guess is Retro will tell you to buy an OEM relay, but I’m no electrical guy, so wait for his input before you start ordering parts 

[Mach 1 21]

3 hours ago, jeepwm69 said:

That appears to be the fuel pump/ EFI injection relay.

 

My guess is Retro will tell you to buy an OEM relay, but I’m no electrical guy, so wait for his input before you start ordering parts 

True, but for testing on connector,  that relay holds stop relay..in my Stang Mach 1, there is a CCRM that contains 4 relays for fans and fuel pump, got a feeling that relay is a dual purpose stop/fuel pump..will investigate tomorrow. 

[retro 4,048]

7 hours ago, Mach 1 said:

Here is part I replaced along with aftermarket coil..Shop replaced IAC, which was weird since I had zero miles on one I put in, initial issue was wouldn't keep running without throttle,  got it back and second ride blew fuse, died and now it sits..thanks

 

Yeah, that is the Engine stop/Fuel pump relay module. I gave you some test instructions concerning that relay and wiring that connects to it and then you couldn't find that relay, so I was questioning which relay you had replaced.

 

Nevermind those test instructions for now though, we already know that the relay module is junk, our only concern is the circuitry that connects that relay. Let's come back to that later....

 

Make sure that the junk ignition coil and the junk relay module are both unplugged and do not ever plug them back in.

 

Make sure that the battery is disconnected and stays disconnected.

 

Lets check the Ignition switch first, because the ignition switch was overloaded with excessive current during the short circuit events -- it might be damaged or fried.

 

Remove the front rack and the front fender. Find the 4p connector for the ignition switch and remove that connector from the clip that attaches it to the frame and unplug that connector. See the image below for it's location.

 

Inside the ignition switch connector on the switch side sub-harness, with your multimeter in continuity mode, with the Ignition switch turned OFF, probe one meter lead on the Red/Black wire terminal and the other meter lead on the Pink wire terminal. There should be no continuity between those two terminals. Then probe one meter lead on the Red wire terminal and the other meter lead on the Black wire terminal. There should be no continuity between those two terminals.

 

Report back with those results.

 

Then turn the ignition switch ON and repeat those same two tests. There should be continuity for both tests this time.

 

Then turn the ignition switch OFF. Report back with those results.

 

 

[jeepwm69 7,613]

On 12/30/2023 at 1:34 PM, retro said:

 

Yeah, that is the Engine stop/Fuel pump relay module. I gave you some test instructions concerning that relay and wiring that connects to it and then you couldn't find that relay, so I was questioning which relay you had replaced.

 

Nevermind those test instructions for now though, we already know that the relay module is junk, our only concern is the circuitry that connects that relay. Let's come back to that later....

 

Make sure that the junk ignition coil and the junk relay module are both unplugged and do not ever plug them back in.

 

Make sure that the battery is disconnected and stays disconnected.

 

Lets check the Ignition switch first, because the ignition switch was overloaded with excessive current during the short circuit events -- it might be damaged or fried.

 

Remove the front rack and the front fender. Find the 4p connector for the ignition switch and remove that connector from the clip that attaches it to the frame and unplug that connector. See the image below for it's location.

 

Inside the ignition switch connector on the switch side sub-harness, with your multimeter in continuity mode, with the Ignition switch turned OFF, probe one meter lead on the Red/Black wire terminal and the other meter lead on the Pink wire terminal. There should be no continuity between those two terminals. Then probe one meter lead on the Red wire terminal and the other meter lead on the Black wire terminal. There should be no continuity between those two terminals.

 

Report back with those results.

 

Then turn the ignition switch ON and repeat those same two tests. There should be continuity for both tests this time.

 

Then turn the ignition switch OFF. Report back with those results.

 

 

 

@retro, safe to say I should do the same with this 2013 Foreman I picked up yesterday?   I fixed it a few weeks ago for a woman.  Mice chewed wires. 

 

Her brother had previously tried fixing it with a new coil he got at NAPA.  

 

Once I spliced wires back together, it ran fine.  Dropped it off, she called back a few weeks later, said it had died again.

 

I found a blown 10A fuse in the fuse box.   Stuck a 30A in there (only spare fuse in the fuse box) and the coil sizzled and put out a huge cloud of smoke.

 

I ordered a replacement OEM coil, but don't want to smoke it too, so figure the troubleshooting instructions in this thread will likely apply to my task as well, correct?

[retro 4,048]

 

On 1/2/2024 at 11:57 AM, jeepwm69 said:

@retro, safe to say I should do the same with this 2013 Foreman I picked up yesterday? 

 

Yeah, maybe check that the high current coil barbecue didn't take out the ignition switch? I'd guess that's optional though, it's probably fine. Other than that, since your relay module is OEM a 10 amp ignition fuse is probably all you should need.

 

I have never dealt with a shorted/fried china ignition coil on a PGM-FI fuel injected Rancher/Foreman, so I don't know what to expect.... I'm a bit concerned about the ECM/PCM, since all of the short circuited current flowed through it.

[jeepwm69 7,613]

10 hours ago, retro said:

 

 

Yeah, maybe check that the high current coil barbecue didn't take out the ignition switch? I'd guess that's optional though, it's probably fine. Other than that, since your relay module is OEM a 10 amp ignition fuse is probably all you should need.

 

I have never dealt with a shorted/fried china ignition coil on a PGM-FI fuel injected Rancher/Foreman, so I don't know what to expect.... I'm a bit concerned about the ECM/PCM, since all of the short circuited current flowed through it.

 

Well, originally the problem was chewed wires/rodent damage, but the woman's brother tried a Caltric voltage regulator and a coil from NAPA, so when I spliced the wires back together it died on her again shortly thereafter.

 

Caltric voltage regulator is in a box in the rear basket, original back on.   New/ used coil is on the way from PSN.

 

You think I'd be ok just putting a new 10A fuse in with the new OEM coil and trying it?  

[retro 4,048]

3 hours ago, jeepwm69 said:

You think I'd be ok just putting a new 10A fuse in with the new OEM coil and trying it? 

 

That's what I would do if I were working on it because evidence is lacking (so far) that it needs anything more. I mean, you know precisely what happened to it and why it happened..... it was supposed to happen so your fix should be routine. I would also make that Caltric regulator disappear, because if ya don't it will eventually end up plugged in again, making more unnecessary work for you. But I'm sure that you have a plan for that already, so....

 

Your case differs from Mach 1's Rancher in that the china barbecue was brief and terminated the moment you turned the ignition switch off. We got no reason to suspect that anything besides the coil fried, so far....

 

While in his case the china relay module stuck closed while the smoke was let out, so his barbecue continued long after he turned the ignition switch off -- until the battery was drained completely dead. So I have concerns for his stuff where I don't for yours. If the ignition switch survived on his Rancher then the next step will be to plug OEM parts in and find out. 

 

[jeepwm69 7,613]

That makes perfect sense, and puts me a little more at ease about plugging in the PSN coil when it arrives.  I will update!

 

@Mach 1, any progress on your Rancher?

[retro 4,048]

If I remember correctly there should be intermittent battery voltage sent through the two ignition coil terminals by the ECM/PCM...? So it makes sense that you should be able to connect a multimeter to those two coil wires with the OEM coil unplugged, turn the key on and crank the motor over and measure the Primary voltage pulses. I'm pretty sure that there should be battery voltage between the Black/Red terminal and frame ground while the ignition switch is turned ON, at least. Because if I am remembering correctly the Black/Red is hot all the time while the key is on, and so the ECM/PCM completes the ignition coil Primary circuit (momentarily each revolution of the motor - the Pulse gen signals those events) by providing ground to the Green/Yellow coil wire. If my memory is wrong holler....

 

I'm hoping Mach 1's ECM/PCM is still good based on the fact that it didn't go into an open-circuit condition while his coil was sizzling. His ECM/PCM continued to supply current to the frying coil until the battery completely drained. So if his stuff can take that much long-term abuse then yours should be fine.

 

As I said this is new territory for me, so I'm gonna learn stuff.

 

EDIT: If my explanation above is correct, of how the ignition coil Primary is controlled by the ECM/PCM, then the Green/Yellow wire that connects to the coil should not be providing a ground while the key is ON, and the motor is not being cranked over by the starter. So with the key turned ON you should be able to connect a test light to the positive battery terminal and touch the unplugged Green/Yellow wire terminal and the test light should NOT light up. But if you crank the motor over the test light might blink on & off (very weakly if perceptible), proving that the PCM/ECM is working. 

 

EDIT #2: Honestly now that I've thought about my explanation above for a few more minutes, I think I have everything backwards. I think the Black/Red is hot all the time while the key is on AND I think that the Green/Yellow is grounded all the time by the ECM/PCM while the key is on. The Pulse Generator signals to the ECM/PCM to interrupt the ground that is being provided to the Green/Yellow wire, causing the Primary voltage magnetic field to collapse in the coil, which by induction the Secondary coil windings create the high voltage that jumps the spark plug gap.

 

Whew!

[Mach 1 21]

Hey guys, will be back in town tomorrow..yea, mine is a one off..had key off, came in, later found coil melted, and a first dash worked..battery never drained, no dash but headlights worked,  another weird thing was ignition fuse would blow, put new relay, no blow, hook up coil, fuse blows, check rectifier,  no blow, then with all hooked up, no blown fuse, but coil melted..just a nightmare,  gonna get on it tomorrow. 

[Mach 1 21]

Update, bad storm here in DE GA so been cleaning, last day hunting season Saturday so will have time to get at it hard, take care guys and thanks!!

[Mach 1 21]

Dang Retro, your brain red/white wire is providing excess voltage to your typing finger lol, GREAT write up/explanation!!

[Mach 1 21]

Ok, started at 1st test in thread...

Continuity from battery to black/green terminal inside engine stop relay connector, have continuity. In resistance mode with range on 2000, black/green terminal tested at 1061 ohms.

 

Next, at disconnected PCM/ECM harness, black 5 pin connector, (not sure if correct connector..), my wire, instead of Black /Red is Red with black dashes, and a Red/White so I tested Red/Black..

No contuinty,  then with multimeter in resistance, 0 ohms on same connector.

Ground bolt satisfactory. 

 

Stopped here to give these results before moving on, positive battery terminal disconnected for all test.

Awaiting next move, sorry so late, life got in the way .