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slowindown

2002 Rancher 4x4 ES shift issue

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Posted (edited)

So I've had this machine since late 05 and I've never had a problem with the ES.  But it has been parked until last weekend for about a year and a half.  I decided I wanted to get it out and start using it some again so last weekend I bought a new battery for it and replaced the float and needle valve which was sticking.  It fired right up and I rode it a fair amount last week and it ran and shifted just fine.  But several times over the last two days after running it medium hard across the pasture, the shift buttons completely quit working, not even a click.  When this happens, I can turn the key off and then back on and then I can shift back to neutral by rocking the machine and shifting with the switches (but sometimes the shifting seems a little weak and it takes it bit to get it to neutral).  Or I can use the emergency shifter to get back to neutral.

 

This afternoon I thought I would take the angle sensor, shift motor and cover off to get to the ES gears and check them and the grease.  But the completely dead switches when it stops working has me questioning if that's the problem.

 

Do these symptoms ring a bell with anyone? Thoughts?

 

Rodney

 

Edited by slowindown

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Hey @slowindown best bet is to go to the Service Manual header at the top and download your manual for your model, there aren't many that have not been uploaded.  My manual for my 98 Foreman 450ES has a whole section on the ES to include troubleshooting and wiring diagrams.  Take a look at that and see what you come up with and get back here.....

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I've downloaded the manual.  I can't go through much of the troubleshooting procedure as I mailed my lcd display off to be repaired yesterday.  I'm guessing that it wont be back for about a week.

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Yea not sure besides ohming out wires if there is much you can do.  Prolly dont even want to put power on with the LCD removed, at least I dont think I would.  You could disconnect the plug for the shift switch and make sure there is continuity between vcc and each up and down position.....  

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Posted (edited)

The thing is it works normal for awhile. I went out just now and had to zip back and forth through the field several times before I could get the problem to recur. Seems to only do it after reaching operating temp. but we will see. 

 

Oddly i didn’t notice it doing this until I removed the lcd meter.  Coincidence I assume. 

Edited by slowindown

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If the ES has never been prepped before it surely needs it. A good battery is required for ES too. But most times a teardown, cleaning, relubing with synthetic grease and waterproofing makes them work better than new. The teardown of the shift motor and reduction gears housing is easy to do.

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Thanks.  I will do that.  What grease do you recommend?  I have superlube, which is a clear synthetic, which I use on various things on my Commander.  Other than that, I have yamalube ultramatic grease, yamalube polyurea greas and red and tacky grease in the grease gun.  I don't know if any of those are synthetic but dont think so.

 

 

 

 

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Mobile 1 synthetic grease is what retro recommended to me and has made my shifting very smooth.  And the good thing is it doesnt break down with heat and use.  I'm not sure if any of those you listed is similar but maybe any synthetic would work.  A tub of the Mobile 1 at Autozone is only $10 so wont set you back much.... 

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Make sure when you take the shift motor off do a really good cleanup of the old yukky grease and whatever else is in with the gears.  I am told Honda did a horrible job of packing grease in there before installing and if it's never been taken apart it may scare you...lol  Remove the 2 reduction gears so you can do a good cleaning then put grease on the bearings.  Dont skimp on how much grease to use the gears will love it....let us know how it goes....

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I will definitely post back. I’m going to do my swing arm boot first. Noticed today that it had a hole in it. Made another thread about that. 

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, retro said:

Hi, welcome to ATV Honda @s_c_collins3! You'll need some Mobil 1 synthetic grease, a tube of dielectric grease, some Ultra Black (or similar silicone gasket maker) and possibly a small piece of sandpaper and/or a scotchbrite pad and a few common hand tools. If you still have all of your original parts lets plan on taking those apart. Hollar when you get your Rancher back and we'll get started.

 

I bought a tub of mobil 1 synthetic grease.  I have all of the other things you mentioned, assuming my tube of ultra black hasn't hardened - it still felt ok, never been opened, just in the tool box a year or two.  The original parts have never been touched.  I bought the machine in 05, it had about 8 or 900 miles on it and was still basically new.  It now has just over 4000 miles and 600 hours and I've never touched anything except the valves, the carb, oil/filter, the rear brakes and now this and the swing arm boot.  I'm off for the next several days and all I have to do is a lot of yardwork and tinker with the honda.  So I'm ready to get started.

 

Edit:  Sorry. I thought this was my thread.  Mine is the 02 Rancher 4x4 ES.  Mea culpa.  Mine's doing almost the same thing except it doesn't do it as often or as regularly as the OP and when mine does it and the ES totally quits working I think its usually in 4th or 5th after spirited driving but maybe 3rd too.  I'm still ready to get started! lol

Edited by slowindown
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@slowindown, I gotta do some outdoors work right now, be back later on. Go ahead and clean up the front cover area around the reduction gears cover so ya won't get dirt in your work, unplug the shift motor and angle sensor & remove the 4 bolts holding the reduction gears cover on. I'll catch up with ya later in your thread.

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Posted (edited)

I’m going to take a break before I screw something else up. As you can see in the pics, I broke the bolt holding the right side of the cover plate. It seemed to be turning out maybe 2-4 turns, then broke.  So I'm thinking it actually turned in the threads some before it broke and the shaft wasn't just twisting.  Almost felt cross threaded... recommendations on how to get that out?  I was thinking I could possibly double nut the stud or maybe get some small vise grips on it? Right now I’m putting pb blaster on it. 

 

Other than that, the grease looks pretty dry. What do you think about the shift motor?

 

pics attached 

208E8077-F873-4561-8162-6F070BE5793A.jpeg

9EC15985-306C-445E-A52A-7C4F0065C5A5.jpeg

762377D3-7CF3-4847-A87C-F4EC9142E9B6.jpeg

23E9054E-21E2-4C9A-9DE4-54D692164278.jpeg

Edited by slowindown

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Yeah get that crappy dried thick grease cleaned out of there.  You want a very light coat of syn grease, or maybe even white lithium (I'll let @retro make that call)

 

As far as the broken bolt, if you can grab it with vice grips, do that.  Other fixes are dremeling a slot in the head and using a flathead screwdriver, or drilling it out (be CAREFUL and use a punch dead center on the bolt, so your bit doesn't walk and get the hold off).

 

Once you drill out the old bolt you can retap the threads.

 

I broke off a long bolt on the front half of the crankcase tearing my daughter's down this morning.  I'm going to have to do the same.

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I can only get vise grips on it straight on with very little space to twist right or left. The shifter shaft and the front drive shaft are in the way. I’m afraid I’ll have to get the engine loose so I can turn it to get at the bolt. 

B53A0398-6A72-4CDA-896C-C2C1ED153DFA.jpeg

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Ahhh. that sucks!

 

So twisting it you contact the clutch cover?

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Yeah. You can only make a very small arc before contacting the clutch cover.  I have a little mini pair of vise grips somewhere but naturally, I can't find them.  For right now, I think I'll continue to hit it with pb blaster although I don't think its penetrating.  I'll give it another try later before going radical.

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Posted (edited)

I would get the rubber gasket out of the way and thread a nut on as best you can and weld the nut then carefully back it out

The heat will help break it loose, also you can put some pb blaster on the threads and shock the bolt/threads by tap-tap tapping straight on it with a hammer

the shock will help break loose corrosion/rust

 If you dont have a welder, try and heat bolt red (white) hot with a torch (use a heatshield for the clutch case) and then try to vise grip a little at a time

you dont want it to break off flush or its drill and tap time and that a fiddly area for trying to do that in

That grease looks like tar for sure, I think once you get it cleaned and all back together, it will be a lot easier/smoother to shift

speaking of fiddly-those brushes are a bit of a trick getting back in the motor but since you have it apart, it good to clean and lube the armature bushings

as well with synthetic lube, it will will help too

 

A little bit of my enthusiasm goes out the window when I break a bolt.........not much, but a little- 😃

Edited by AKATV

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Thanks. I'll try to tack a nut to it and tap on it.  All I have is a little stick welder but it usually does ok. 

 

And yeah.  My enthusiasm left the building.  I probably won't mess with it until the morning.

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Dont let it get you down-it happens to all of us

Glad you have a welder, it should make quick work getting it out

I am the worst welder ever but have gotten good enough thru the years to stick some things together (and burn holes in others😃)

good luck- let us know how it goes

 

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Just a thought, before you pull the motor......

 

I've had to pull front covers several times.  Normally I stand the wheeler up on the back rack.  Make sure you shut off the fuel petcock, but otherwise these things will stand up on the back wheels and rear rack.

 

Then you can pull the front cover off without having to pull the motor, or even draining the oil.  The oil will run to the back of the motor.

 

If you can't get it out like you're trying, you could stand it up, pull the front cover, and get the bolt out on the bench.

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I hope to get back to this tomorrow.  I picked up some hondabond in case I need to remove the clutch cover.  How do you remove the front drive shaft? It goes into the front cover.

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To remove the front driveshaft remove the mounting bolts and bracket from the front diff and slide the diff forward as far as it goes. Then pull back on the driveshaft coupler (its spring loaded) to remove it from the output shaft. The service manual covers it. Hope ya win soon!

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