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fuffs

2013 Rancher AT IRS EPS won't pull

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I'm new to this forum and I'll need help from you guys who know Honda's. I'll give you a detailed history...
My bike is a 2013 Rancher AT with IRS and power steering. It's actually the Canadian Trail Edition sold up here in Canada. It has auto and ESP. I stripped the threads in the oil drain hole while doing an oil change and there wasn't enough metal in the blind hole to tap it out to a larger size. So I drilled the remaining threads out to 1/2" and flushed the crankcase with the old oil, then I used an expandable plug and refilled with new oil and installed a new filter. I was afraid that the expandable plug might leak, so I took the atv for a long ride, checking the expandable plug for leaks every few miles. There were no leaks. After about 50 miles, I was driving home in 5th gear at about 30 mph and lost drive power completely. There wasn't any noise to indicate a problem when this happened. The motor runs fine. With the bike jacked up, the wheels will turn, but with no force. The gears will shift. There is no difference in 4 wheel drive.

 I used the right oil from Honda, same oil they've been selling me for the last 7 years and amount was bang-on. The bike ran perfect for 50 miles, then all of a sudden, it stopped pulling. There was no indication of a problem leading up to this failure. There was no hesitation, no odd noise, no gradual loss of power...just instant.
I just tried draining the oil and blowing out the 3 oil ports for the clutches thinking maybe something was blocking a line or port. I filtered the oil through a sieve and coffee filter as it drained and the was no particles or discoloration in the oil. The drive line is good, except it needs a new front CV joint and bearing...just noticed it.

I'd like to check the pressure from the oil pump to the clutches, but have no means of doing that since I don't have a test gauge manifold.

Does anyone have any ideas?

Edited by fuffs
missed word

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Hi: How did you check the oil level in bike?

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I put 3.6 litres in the crankcase, started the bike and let run for a few minutes, then shut it off.  after a few minutes, I took out the dipstick and wiped it off and put it back in without screwing it in. Oil was at the top of the top line. The bike was in the garage on level footing.

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Do you have a service manual for this bike? I was told by jeepwm69 that you were the guy to talk to. He suggested looking into taking the main valve apart and inspecting/cleaning it.

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No I don't have the time of day to mess with anyone.

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you did not install the oil filter backwards did you ?.

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I'm sure I didn't. I don't think the bike would have gone 50 miles if the filter was in backwards.

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15 hours ago, fuffs said:

...you messing with me?

 

 

LOL.  Glad you made it over.

 

Mel is just being thorough. 

 

He's a whiz on these EFI Ranchers though.  From back before VerticalScope ruined the old board, he walked me through all kinds of problems on my wife's 09 420AT

 

https://www.hondaatvforums.net/threads/420at-shifting-speedometer-issues.58594/

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Where are you from fuffs? 

 

You could probably rig up an oil pressure setup to test it.  I'd look in the FSM first and see what the troubleshooting directions tell you. 

 

Might not be a bad idea to take the valve body off and make sure it's clear. 

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I wasn't sure if Mel was razzing me, if he was, he made me chuckle.

I'm in Ontario, Canada. How about you?

I was talking to the dealer and he recommended a pump pressure test. I had been to a hydraulics supplier last week seeing if I could get a fitting to adapt to the 8mm oil ports. We figured I could rig a manifold gauge for around $115 cdn. To test it at he honda shop, they would charge their shop rate which is about the same. So I'm leaning towards making my own. Right now, I'm riding my wife's 09 Rancher AT. It's the same bike and I've taken my accessories off my 13 and put them on hers. 

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I'm down in Arkansas. 

 

I wish @toodeep would get unbusy.  He probably has the most experience with the testing procedures on the oil pressure run models. 

 

But sounds like an oil pressure test might be the way to go.  Please keep us posted.  My wife has an 09, and two of my friends have them for their kids, so I'm likely to have to address a similar issue at some point in the future.

 

 

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I'm debating on removing the main valve like you said and cleaning and inspecting it before I do a pressure test. There's a solenoid in there and maybe its bad.

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Those solenoids are pretty tough.  I actually broke one of mine off pulling the motor, and just superglued it back on and it still works fine.

 

But that's something that isn't overcomplicated that you could check.

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cheap, simple fix...buy a .99 cent for sale sign, get rid of it, buy a manual shift model..problem solved !.

  • Haha 1

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@fuffs the oil pump on this model is located in the same spacer case that the drain plug is. I bet you have very low or zero oil pressure just from a piece of material finding it's way into the oil pump or the relief valve. If your careful (and it will most likely make a mess) you can remove the oil pressure check bolt and start it to see if there is any oil flowing out (keep your hand on the key to shut it down if needed) and use a finger to "judge" oil pressure. If low/no oil pressure is confirmed I would plan on replacing the case anyway and the trouble area should be in the same place.

 

I've seen just some overly used hondabond cause damage to oil pumps just because of the tight tolerances they have.

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Posted (edited)

Thanks Toodeep. I ordered some parts today from a hydraulic shop to make up a manifold gauge set. The 8mm x 1.25 thread in the oil pressure inspection port is an odd size. The fitting should be in early next week. As a stab in the dark, I tried closing the solenoid emergency bi-pass screw on the shift control valve today, but it didn't make any difference. I'm going to wait for the make-shift pressure test manifold before going any further, but I like your thinking. I have no codes showing, so I don't think its electrical, but who's to say? I doubt anything made it through the oil pump pick-up screen, but you may be right.

I'm thinking oil pressure test to prove the pump is working and if it is, open up the casings and check the clutch. 

Edited by fuffs

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Hi: Drill a hole through the 8mm x 1.25 bolt and silver solder or braze it to match the fitting you are using for the gauge. 

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Ahhhh, Great idea, I already have the fitting on order. Your middle name wouldn't happen to be MacIver would it?

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Finally got time to look at things closer... I've got the front crankcase cover off and what do I see...the oil pump casing has blown apart. It may have picked up something and built up too much pressure. Its funny that the relief valve didn't prevent damage if that was the case. I'm having trouble getting the driver clutch off. The puller I borrowed is a little small, so I made longer arms for it, but even with a big gear clamp around the 2 jaws, it still doesn't fit snug enough on the back side of the clutch. I don't want to buy the honda puller. Anyone got any ideas?

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3 jaw puller, use several hose clamps linked together around the drum to keep the arms from slipping off.

 

Then an impact.

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