2005 rancher brakes

[chris22 1]

Hey guys, I got my daughters bike a 2005 400 Honda rancher. I put on 4 new wheel cylinders, new master cylinder and brake pads for the front brakes. Hubs were cleaned very well. The brakes were adjusted where they are rubbing, bleed the brakes a million times, manual and a vacum pump. The master cylinder is good, I pinched the line and it gets hard immediately. I bled from the bleeder valves, the Bango bolts on the hubs and even out the master cylinder bango bolt. If I pinch off one side of the line brakes get hard, either side. When neither line is pinched the brake handle still is soft. If I pump it up a bunch of times it gets hard but after I let it go, its soft again. I am out ideas! Does anyone have any ideals? I see no leaks anywhere, and all connections are tight. I dont know what to try or do. Thanks for any help.

Chris

[retro 4,071]

Try cranking the brake shoe adjusters down tight so the brake shoes lock up the drums on both sides.

 

Then find small diameter transparent hoses about 2 feet long or more that fit snugly on the nipples of the brake bleeders and loop them over the top of the upper ball joint and let them hang down into the bottom of small plastic containers to catch the brake fluid that comes out of each hose while bleeding.

 

Then, beginning with the left side wheel cylinders, pump the master cylinder up and open one of the left side bleeders then immediately close that bleeder. Repeat until there is no air coming out. Then bleed the other wheel cylinder on the left side.

 

Move your clear hoses to the right side wheel cylinders, loop them over the upper ball joint and bleed both cylinders like you have on the left side.

 

Once you get them bled completely then readjust each brake adjuster where they should be.

[retro 4,071]

By the way, welcome to ATVHonda chris22!

[retro 4,071]

3 minutes ago, retro said:

Try cranking the brake shoe adjusters down tight so the brake shoes lock up the drums on both sides.

 

.... not so tight that you cannot rotate the wheel to sight each adjuster in the hole in the hub....

[chris22 1]

Thank you very much! I'll give that a try tomorrow I hope. The thing is cracking me. For some reason I have a feeling something might be wrong at the T. Tomorrow I may try to bleed it from there. I didnt today because it was really tight and didnt want to strip it. Now I'm at the point if it does, I'll just buy a new one. Thinking of getting new hoses for the front even though I see no leaks. For the night because of what someone else mentioned, I strapped the break leaver down to handle bar and just let it sit overnight. Thanks for your help!

[retro 4,071]

I doubt that there is anything wrong with the brake line tee, they're just a bugger to get all of the air out sometimes. Hope you nail it the first try!

[Fishfiles 20,147]

I have had fits before trying to bleed my brakes , from reading your thread it sounds like you have tried some of this before  , so forgive me it is is repetitive , but this has not failed me yet , kind of hard to explain 

 

You need two pinch pliers to do this procedure , if you don't have them , then  small vise grips will work , if you are using vise grips use a piece of rubber or cardboard to make a u-shaped hose protector so the teeth don't damage the hose ,first pinch the hose right out of the master , if the master is good it will make the lever hard with one maybe two pumps ( first time )  at the most , if it test good  then leave the pliers there , attach another pair pf pliers on one side of the tee , blocking off one side , so that you are only working with one side at a time ----  here is the technique , pump the lever till you feel pressure then with your other hand release the pliers, when the pressure on the  lever releases and the lever touches the handle bar , re-pinch the pliers before letting the lever go , then pump the lever till pressure is achieved and repeat the previous procedure , so what you are doing is force feeding pressure thru the hose , a pump at a time , then it helps to have another person to start bleeding the bleeder valve , when you feel you have pressure to one side , then move the pinch pliers to the other side of the tee and repeat on that side 

 

I have seen the inside of the metal fittings' hose barb at the hose get rusted up and blockage occur , also seen the hoses get soft and expand when pressure applied , proper adjustment  of the brake shoes is vital to get it bleed properly 

 

I have also played around with reverse bleeding using pressure and also by using a vacuum pump and sucking fluid thru , but that pinch and pump seems to work the best for me when having trouble 

[ATC4ever 1,084]

Are you adjusting them with the wheels on? I have found with them on you can spin them easier as opposed to just the drum. & Yea theyre a pain to get both adjusters on each side adjusted about the same 😫

[chris22 1]

43 minutes ago, ATC4ever said:

Are you adjusting them with the wheels on? I have found with them on you can spin them easier as opposed to just the drum. & Yea theyre a pain to get both adjusters on each side adjusted about the same 😫

Thanks, I've done both. Just odd if I pinch one side of the lines, either side, they feel good but when one side is released where both sides are free, the lever gets spongy! A pain in the butt. Hoping to mess with it later

[chris22 1]

4 hours ago, Fishfiles said:

I have had fits before trying to bleed my brakes , from reading your thread it sounds like you have tried some of this before  , so forgive me it is is repetitive , but this has not failed me yet , kind of hard to explain 

 

You need two pinch pliers to do this procedure , if you don't have them , then  small vise grips will work , if you are using vise grips use a piece of rubber or cardboard to make a u-shaped hose protector so the teeth don't damage the hose ,first pinch the hose right out of the master , if the master is good it will make the lever hard with one maybe two pumps ( first time )  at the most , if it test good  then leave the pliers there , attach another pair pf pliers on one side of the tee , blocking off one side , so that you are only working with one side at a time ----  here is the technique , pump the lever till you feel pressure then with your other hand release the pliers, when the pressure on the  lever releases and the lever touches the handle bar , re-pinch the pliers before letting the lever go , then pump the lever till pressure is achieved and repeat the previous procedure , so what you are doing is force feeding pressure thru the hose , a pump at a time , then it helps to have another person to start bleeding the bleeder valve , when you feel you have pressure to one side , then move the pinch pliers to the other side of the tee and repeat on that side 

 

I have seen the inside of the metal fittings' hose barb at the hose get rusted up and blockage occur , also seen the hoses get soft and expand when pressure applied , proper adjustment  of the brake shoes is vital to get it bleed properly 

 

I have also played around with reverse bleeding using pressure and also by using a vacuum pump and sucking fluid thru , but that pinch and pump seems to work the best for me when having trouble 

Thank you, worth a try. Hopefully I'll get chance today to try that or try it soon. Just odd if I pinch one side of the line, the lever feels good. Doesn't matter which side. But when both lines are free, the lever gets spongy.

[retro 4,071]

13 minutes ago, chris22 said:

Just odd if I pinch one side of the line, the lever feels good. Doesn't matter which side. But when both lines are free, the lever gets spongy.

 

The brake shoes must be adjusted up as tight as you can get them (but not so tight that you can't rotate the wheels/drums) when bleeding the lines. Then after bleeding loosen the brake adjusters up where they belong. I think you'll win right away. 

[Fishfiles 20,147]

1 hour ago, chris22 said:

Thank you, worth a try. Hopefully I'll get chance today to try that or try it soon. Just odd if I pinch one side of the line, the lever feels good. Doesn't matter which side. But when both lines are free, the lever gets spongy.

 

 

I wonder if what happens  is , an air floats up around the tee and some air will shift from side to side 

[toodeep 1,759]

I would go ride it so it's under good pressure and work the front brakes since you can pump them up to get the to work. Then come back and readjust the shoes and if needed bleed them again. My guess is the shoes haven't found "home" allowing them to be adjusted correctly. Blocking off one side forces the fluid to just one to overcome this instead of sharing it between both sides.

[chris22 1]

Yes, going to try that thanks. This model even has vent line that goes to a wheel cylinder on each side. Cant find a leak in them tho. Not sure why they have vent lines but would think that would only help get air out.

[Fishfiles 20,147]

5 minutes ago, chris22 said:

Yes, going to try that thanks. This model even has vent line that goes to a wheel cylinder on each side. Cant find a leak in them tho. Not sure why they have vent lines but would think that would only help get air out.

 

The vent tube doesn't go to the wheel cylinder , it goes in the backing plate , the purpose is to vent the brake drum 

[chris22 1]

Ok thanks, was wondering why it had vent lines. Learn something everyday 

[_Wilson_™ 6,591]

Those vent lines also usally get torn off..... Just about every honda utility atv  that came up to Lj's shop (where i worked) had the front ones gone.... Just saying... 

[Snow Camo 243]

On 12/6/2022 at 2:27 PM, chris22 said:

Yes, going to try that thanks. This model even has vent line that goes to a wheel cylinder on each side. Cant find a leak in them tho. Not sure why they have vent lines but would think that would only help get air out.

Any luck getting pressure?

[chris22 1]

Unfortunately no, haven't messed it in a couple days. I ordered the front hose assembly with T valve so waiting on it. Just have the feeling something is wrong in there. I seen some little pieces of rubber while bleeding. So I will change that out and try it again

[Snow Camo 243]

Gotcha. I'm no pro with quads, however automotive I am more familiar with. 

 

That said When I got my quad I had to bleed the brakes due to the lines being empty. 

 

What I noticed is when I followed every way posted on a vid or forum I had a soft/ squishy pump action when I grabbed the lever. 

 

Something I notice while bleeding the thousandth time was when I connected a clear hose into my clear bottle with fluid in it.... the fluid would pull back into the system. When it did that the brakes were firm. After about a week or so after they were even more firm. I also noticed the master cylinder had fluid leaking out when the top was secured. I left it just above the site glass and it was still at the same level when I came back to it. 

 

Seems like there was air still trapped in there. I tried everything from manually pumping, turning the handle bars left amd right, to a hand held vac bleeder. The only thing that yielded the firm lever was letting the system draw the fluid back into. 

 

Bit long winded, but I hope that helps.

[chris22 1]

Thanks, when I put the new hoses and t valve on, I willd try to bleed them and maybe try that. Thanks again

[Snow Camo 243]

Your most welcome. 

[ATC4ever 1,084]

I had an Old GoldWing where the rear brake was a dick to bleed, the guys on the forums back then said to brace the rear brake pedal on & leave it over night. Took 2-3 nights of checking & re-applying, but the pressure finally came back & I assume the air was gone.

[shadetree 5,969]

you are either not working the bleeding right ?, or you still have air trapped in the lines ?. been doing brakes on atv's for 30 yrs, never ran across one to beat me yet !.

[Snow Camo 243]

35 minutes ago, ATC4ever said:

I had an Old GoldWing where the rear brake was a dick to bleed, the guys on the forums back then said to brace the rear brake pedal on & leave it over night. Took 2-3 nights of checking & re-applying, but the pressure finally came back & I assume the air was gone.

 

Great post!