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87Iroc

98 Foreman 450S....Still not found issue

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Posted (edited)

Figured I'd start a new thread as this old one went everywhere...

 

 

Working on a 98 Foreman 450S...

 

Fires up after some work. Struggles to idle...sometimes will struggle to rev but never gains much RPM. Has done this through timing chain change, new carb, new ignition system(stator, CDI box, full chassis harness etc.)

 

So I have checked everything I can think of and had G&H bore bore out to fix compression issue I last reported. Still same issue. I don't want to run it like this much more for fear of causing issue with the rings seating. I'm bummed it didn't fix it...but the quad had low compression...so it was time for a bore anyway.

 

Going back to the fault tree...and the fact it runs the same whether pilot valve is out 2 5/8 turns or fully turned in...I started looking at that fault tree for fueling. 

 

The engine doesn't respond to carb cleaner. That tells me that the engine is being flooded with gas. The fact it does the same with the screw all the way in, rules out several of the troubleshooting branches.

 

It does this on 2 carbs as when I got it it had a new ebay carb on it. I have dismantled the new one just to go through it...but haven't put it back on since the old one has the new carb kit in it from Shindy

 

I just don't know what inside carb would be dumping so much fuel. I have changed the starter enrichment valve as well as it was in really bad shape.

 

Float level too high seems believable because it dumps fuel out on floor often...but it ran like this on both carbs. I just don't see anything in the Rich Mixture branch that would jump across both carbs. The Air cleaner...does it w/o air cleaner on it as well. 

 

If I go back over to left side of tree. Ignition malfunction is there, which has always been in my head(Evil CDI box...which was new with a Honda unit when I bought it)....but as it does it w/the screw completely shut...its getting too much fuel which would indicate to me that I'm looking at a carb/fuel issue.

 

Any suggestions what to chase next? Any ways to really dive in to my float issue? If it overfills, will it just pour in to the engine?

 

image.png

Thanks,

Greg

Edited by 87Iroc

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first of all, is this an OEM carb from HONDA ? ,or is it just a stupid china knock-off ???. if the later ?, that tells me all i need to know as far as fuel goes !. second: have got everything on the engine set up, lined up, all in time ?, third: what is the compression now ?. fourth: IF ALL ELSE FAILS ?, BRING THAT DANG THING TO ME, I'LL FIX IT !. fith: is all parts OEM from HONDA ?. last but not least, when in doubt ?, BLOW IT UP !..LOL.

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I am with Shade on the aftermarket carbs being junk for the most part , and I can attest to that from personal experiences , as I have two 450s , my 2002 didn't run right , I cleaned the carb several times , bought a after market carb and it still didn't perform , installed a OEM carb and all is well 

 

as far as your carb over flow problem goes , did you clean out the tank ?  all it takes is a grain of trash to stick the needle valve , if you clean the carb and not the tank , as soon as you turn on the petcock , you recontaminated the carb 

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6 hours ago, shadetree said:

first of all, is this an OEM carb from HONDA ? ,or is it just a stupid china knock-off ???. if the later ?, that tells me all i need to know as far as fuel goes !. second: have got everything on the engine set up, lined up, all in time ?, third: what is the compression now ?. fourth: IF ALL ELSE FAILS ?, BRING THAT DANG THING TO ME, I'LL FIX IT !. fith: is all parts OEM from HONDA ?. last but not least, when in doubt ?, BLOW IT UP !..LOL.

 

1) Both carbs I got with the quad were China carbs. The original ran for several years on quad before issues happened. I rebuilt it with the Shindy Kit you recommended. Other carb is still almost new but I've taken it apart to check out the differences.

2) Yes, To the best of my ability, the timing chain is set up right.

3) I will check tonight...I put the piston/rings in w/o the ring gaps lined up. 

4) If you were closer, i'd bring it to you...

5) It did cross my mind....

 

 

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1 hour ago, Fishfiles said:

I am with Shade on the aftermarket carbs being junk for the most part , and I can attest to that from personal experiences , as I have two 450s , my 2002 didn't run right , I cleaned the carb several times , bought a after market carb and it still didn't perform , installed a OEM carb and all is well 

 

as far as your carb over flow problem goes , did you clean out the tank ?  all it takes is a grain of trash to stick the needle valve , if you clean the carb and not the tank , as soon as you turn on the petcock , you recontaminated the carb 

 

I did not clean tank. I simply cleaned carb. I assumed since it had no fuel filter inline that there must be some fine screen in the tank to protect the carb. I will reclean the carb thats there and clean tank the best I can. It seems to me an inline fuel filter would be useful...With a gravity fed system, I assume its OK to put a filter inline as well...should flow OK. Or is that a bad idea?

 

While messing with that, I'll also see what I can find for OEM carbs to put on it. Rather not spend over 400 on a new one...thinking about finding a used ebay OEM carb(using the air shutoff 'thing' to determine OEM vs China...as I've seen used China carbs listed as OEM w/o that on it). If I can find a cheaper new one, I'll do that...but all I'm seeing is 400+ for a new one online.

 

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

I guess while I'm here...anyone have a 450S OEM quad sitting on the shelf they'd be willing to sell me? 

 

Edited by 87Iroc

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you brought up something that makes me think , when you run the fuel line from the tank on a 450 , it has to be right , if you were to replace the fuel hose and go longer then it will bunch up and can cause a fuel delivery problem , I learned that as I run fuel filters on my 450s and could see thru the clear filter ----- 

another thing to be careful of , the screws in the pet cock of them 450 plastic tanks will spin the nut that is embedded in the plastic , if for some reason they don't want to come out , it might be better for you to leave it alone , there is a plastic screen over the petcock , it is number 2 in this fiche 

 

 image.png

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Posted (edited)

Thanks for the advice on plastic tank. I figured they were just self tappers in to the plastic. On the line, I've had the line running all sorts of directions(tanks been on and off 20X so far)...but realized that I had to be careful it didn't bunch up so should be good there. The previous owner replaced the fuel line with blue clear hose...

 

 

 

 

Edited by 87Iroc

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you right they want  $ 440 for that 1st gen 450 carb oem  16100-HM0-A00 

 

1st gen 

 

This Honda 16100-HN0-A00 CARBURETOR ASSY. (VE93A A) fits the following models and components:fits the following models and components:

Honda ATV 2000 TRX400FW A - FOURTRAX FOREMAN CARBURETOR

Honda ATV 1999 TRX400FW A - FOURTRAX FORMAN CARBURETOR

Honda ATV 2001 TRX400FW A - FOURTRAX FOREMAN CARBURETOR

Honda ATV 1998 TRX400FW AC - FOURTRAX FORMAN CARBURETOR

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

the second gen 450 carb is "" only  "" $352 , LOL , I never paid that much from Partzilla a few years back , I think it was in the $200+ range ,stuff is going up , before longer you won't be able to get it any more OEM new ----- I  wonder whats different from 1st gen to 2nd gen , besides maybe jets , I have a 450  of each gen and I don't know the difference , I might research that 

 

 

2nd gen 

This Honda 16100-HN0-672 CARBURETOR ASSY. (VE93C B) fits the following models and components:

Honda ATV 2004 TRX450FE A - FOURTRAX FOREMAN ES CARBURETOR

Honda ATV 2004 TRX450FM A - FOURTRAX FOREMAN S CARBURETOR

Honda ATV 2002 TRX450FE A - FOURTRAX FOREMAN ES CARBURETOR

Honda ATV 2003 TRX450FM A - FOURTRAX FOREMAN S CARBURETOR

Honda ATV 2003 TRX450FE A - FOURTRAX FOREMAN ES CARBURETOR

Honda ATV 2002 TRX450FM A - FOURTRAX FOREMAN S CARBURETOR

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Posted (edited)

I did notice that one website redirected you to the 2nd gen when looking for my quad's carb. I am searching 16100-HN0-A02....the 98's is actually -A00 on Partzilla. Part Numbers you show(other than VE numbers) don't look familiar. 

 

I have found new carbs down in the 280-300 range. Several used carbs for sale right now that appear OEM, just dirty. From 48(stuck choke valve) to 115 for the carcas. The higher cost ones say 'running when torn down'. others have been sitting on a shelf.

Edited by 87Iroc

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12 minutes ago, 87Iroc said:

I did notice that one website redirected you to the 2nd gen when looking for my quad's carb. I am searching 16100-HN0-A02....the 98's is actually -A00 on Partzilla. Part Numbers you show(other than VE numbers) don't look familiar. 

 

I have found new carbs down in the 280-300 range. Several used carbs for sale right now that appear OEM, just dirty. From 48(stuck choke valve) to 115 for the carcas. The higher cost ones say 'running when torn down'. others have been sitting on a shelf.

I fixed it above , I think I copied and pasted the wrong carb , as I was looking to see if the 400 used the same carb , which apparently it don't according to the numbers , you right the number for the carb you need is  16100-HN0-A00 CARBURETOR ASSY. (VE93A A) 

 

there are quite a few used on e-bay ,$100-$200+ ,  the cheapest I seen was like $48 with a stuck choke plunger , they can be gotten out and your old one should be good 

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/98-01-Honda-Foreman-450-Oem-Carb-Carburetor-16100-hn0-a00/184090425851?hash=item2adca4f9fb:g:2KIAAOSwi~Fd~Sy4

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As far as a fuel filter, I put one on my 98 450ES after I did a bunch of work on it.  I took the advise of many on here and didn't want to mess with the petcock screws.  I cleaned the tank out as well as I could and used a mirror to look inside to see the screen and petcock internal parts.  I had an issue before my rebuild of fuel coming out the carb overflow when shutting the 450 off.  I put a Shindy carb rebuild kit in my OEM carb and seemed to help.  But after the rebuild it started again with the overflow hose.  Retro told me to shut the fuel petcock off then open the fuel drain screw at the bottom of the carb and it worked.  But later again had the fuel leak and figured I was getting some small particle to cause my issue so I put the inline filter in, one of the same I have on my mowers and golf cart.  It's been a year or so and haven't had the issue since, I did change it this spring when I change all of them.  The fuel line runs the minimum length so no bends or turns, so I recommend you give that a try.  I was somewhat worried about getting proper fuel as it is gravity fed and no fuel pump, but no issues....

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Thanks...I'll pick an inline filter up. I'll also clean the tank and look inside to see if I can see the petcock filter. Any way to remove the filter from the top and then just put an inline one in? 

 

I checked out the tanks....I see why no one has said 'replace the tank' WOW!

 

 

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50 minutes ago, 87Iroc said:

Thanks...I'll pick an inline filter up. I'll also clean the tank and look inside to see if I can see the petcock filter. Any way to remove the filter from the top and then just put an inline one in? 

 

I checked out the tanks....I see why no one has said 'replace the tank' WOW!

 

 

the tank screen can not be removed from the top, petcock has to come off the bottom of the tank, then you pull the pick up screen down out of the tank.

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40 minutes ago, 87Iroc said:

Thanks...I'll pick an inline filter up. I'll also clean the tank and look inside to see if I can see the petcock filter. Any way to remove the filter from the top and then just put an inline one in? 

 

I checked out the tanks....I see why no one has said 'replace the tank' WOW!

 

 

I don't believe without removing the petcock there is any way to do anything with the filter in the tank.  Like I said if you have a small bendable mirror you can stick inside the tank with a flashlight you can see the filter.  Unless you can see anything impeding the flow of fuel you should be ok.  I know I have read about using lemon juice in some manner to clean the tank, sure you can Google that.  It should knock off anything that may be plugging the filter. 

 

If you do decide to try to remove the petcock most say to use an impact to break them free quickly.  I just haven't had enough reason to try this as there really isn't any good fix if one strips out and fuel tanks don't come cheap, even used....

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Shade beat me to the punch while I was typing my answer!!!  ^^^^^^  He is so slick...lol

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I am going off memory and mine isn't good , but I think the base of the screen fits tight against the sides of the hole and you couldn't get it thru the top side without destroying it -------  the petcocks do get clogged up like the veins of a 70 year , 300 pound lady who smokes and  eats Popeye chicken everyday of her life , while  sitting on the couch watching game shows -------    

 

BCS , he beat me too , I just heard  your post 

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Got the carbs apart.  What is the purpose of the little baffle plate under the float? Keep fuel close to main jet? One had it.  One didn’t. (Both China carbs.  My Honda to rebuild will be here next week)

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9 minutes ago, 87Iroc said:

Got the carbs apart.  What is the purpose of the little baffle plate under the float? Keep fuel close to main jet? One had it.  One didn’t. (Both China carbs.  My Honda to rebuild will be here next week)

honestly ?, its called a diffuser of some sort ?. suppose to keep the fuel from splashing all around in the float bowl near the main jet holder ?. they will run without them, and if your thinking this is your problem ?, ITS NOT !..LOL. 

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44 minutes ago, shadetree said:

honestly ?, its called a diffuser of some sort ?. suppose to keep the fuel from splashing all around in the float bowl near the main jet holder ?. they will run without them, and if your thinking this is your problem ?, ITS NOT !..LOL. 


nope.  Was just wondering.  Screwing around til Honda carb gets here with 2 China carbs I have.  
 

 

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Oh.  Compression with valves set right is 125 now

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7 hours ago, 87Iroc said:

Oh.  Compression with valves set right is 125 now

125 is very good.

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Posted (edited)

Finally made a bit of progress. All along I have been fighting non-repeatable results. One minute it will show some improvement when I tweak something....or seem to want to run at one setting. On that same setting, at other times it won't do anything or barely start.

 

While I wait for my Honda Carb to arrive, I have been messing with the china carbs to see if I can make anything happen. Not making much progress...

 

While messing with this, I did a spark test. Showed a video to a mechanic and he said 'its missing'. I looked, looked again. Said 'ok, if you say so'. He said 'I say so'. So I shut off the lights in the garage, ran it again(one of those adjustable tester things with a window to view spark) and bright blue spark but bigger than ! it just drops out occasionally. So I checked the ground to the coil(he informed me I needed to remove the wire from the coil....I had forgotten that). Evidently even though its a brand new Honda harness, somewhere, either previous owner or i, we broke the wires in that negative wire. I have now grounded it directly to the frame with a different jumper wire.

 

Last night, after doing that, I have a quad that will at least repeatedly start and idle. It used to idle for maybe 3-5 seconds and die at its best. Now it gets out to 10-15 seconds before it dies. I have also had it sounding like it 'wants' to rev. Typically, though...as soon as I try to blip the throttle, it dies. On that note, while I tried to tweak the pilot screw(didn't seem to make any difference on how it wanted to run) the exhaust almost got hot enough to burn my arm...which I chucklked was 'real progress'...

 

On a side note, the mechanic I'm working with said 'I don't like working with aftermarket stuff, its hard to get it running as good as factory with it'...so that is yet another point that the aftermarket carbs aren't worth the time...

 

So back to chasing fuel and running pig rich....my Honda carb will be here tomorrow and I have the rebuild kit on the work bench.

Edited by 87Iroc

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8 hours ago, 87Iroc said:

Finally made a bit of progress. All along I have been fighting non-repeatable results. One minute it will show some improvement when I tweak something....or seem to want to run at one setting. On that same setting, at other times it won't do anything or barely start.

 

While I wait for my Honda Carb to arrive, I have been messing with the china carbs to see if I can make anything happen. Not making much progress...

 

While messing with this, I did a spark test. Showed a video to a mechanic and he said 'its missing'. I looked, looked again. Said 'ok, if you say so'. He said 'I say so'. So I shut off the lights in the garage, ran it again(one of those adjustable tester things with a window to view spark) and bright blue spark but bigger than ! it just drops out occasionally. So I checked the ground to the coil(he informed me I needed to remove the wire from the coil....I had forgotten that). Evidently even though its a brand new Honda harness, somewhere, either previous owner or i, we broke the wires in that negative wire. I have now grounded it directly to the frame with a different jumper wire.

 

Last night, after doing that, I have a quad that will at least repeatedly start and idle. It used to idle for maybe 3-5 seconds and die at its best. Now it gets out to 10-15 seconds before it dies. I have also had it sounding like it 'wants' to rev. Typically, though...as soon as I try to blip the throttle, it dies. On that note, while I tried to tweak the pilot screw(didn't seem to make any difference on how it wanted to run) the exhaust almost got hot enough to burn my arm...which I chucklked was 'real progress'...

 

On a side note, the mechanic I'm working with said 'I don't like working with aftermarket stuff, its hard to get it running as good as factory with it'...so that is yet another point that the aftermarket carbs aren't worth the time...

 

So back to chasing fuel and running pig rich....my Honda carb will be here tomorrow and I have the rebuild kit on the work bench.

on a shorter note....WE TOLD YOU TO STAY AWAY FROM CHINA JUNK !..LOL.

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Quote - 87Iroc " Figured I'd start a new thread as this old one went everywhere... " 

 

The other  thread that  " went everywhere " ,  turned out the  same results as the new one  ,   Chi-naaaa ! LOL 

 

I know a lot of this has been said before ,  to me it sounds like you are running the bowl out of fuel , could be a plugged up screen in tank , petcock clogged up , bad fuel line ( can get deteriorated  and a flap of rubber cause a clog  inside ) , that 450 fuel line has to be as flat as you can get it ,   where the hose routes back to the carb ,cause it is almost level  where it routes ,    the float might be sticking , vent in the tank clogged  ---- forget the tank and run the bike on a " IV " bottle set up with gas in it , a plastic bottle with a valve and hose off the bottom , I use my IV bottle  all the time 

 

Get the Chinese carb off of it and see what happens from there , hopefully you get a good one 

 

 

 

 

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