87Iroc 344 Posted July 27, 2020 Looked at bearings. The center ball carrier thing is black in most bearings. Coating or heat treating maybe. Likely anti friction coating if I had to guess. Outer parts are either moderately stained from years of oil and soot or something else. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fishfiles 20,145 Posted July 27, 2020 On 7/25/2020 at 5:05 PM, 87Iroc said: what does under drive do? Takes away top end for low end pep? Gear reduction allows you to run a bigger tire and be able to spin it ------ but you lose top end speed , my 2000 450 with 35% reduction and 29.5 tires will only do 19mph Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
87Iroc 344 Posted July 27, 2020 Thanks. I saw the clutch basket for 40 bucks used but the other piece(mating gear which I presume is needed) was about twice that. I assume both are needed? Right now I'm writing off that I'm going to leave it stock, but I need to check what tires are on it. They aren't stock...but look factory size. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
87Iroc 344 Posted July 27, 2020 (edited) On another note. This cylinder has been bored out .25 now by G&H. New piston, rings, etc. I've been struggling with the idle and have flooded with fuel at least twice. G&H says to bring it up to 1400 and hold there to break rings in immediately. I've obviously not been able to do that. Do I need to get/borrow a honing tool and hit it quick with a hone to rough it back up(crosshatch still looks good but a few lines in it from ring end gaps) and maybe put new rings in it again or just give it a try as is? I saw someone say they put new rings in whenever the jug is pulled somewhere so I thought I'd check on thoughts there. Another question...Shadetree mentioned replacing oil seals. I was planning on it. Currently putting them in Cart at Rocky Mountain. Is OEM the way to go or one of the aftermarket seal kits I see offered elsewhere? Looks like I found 4...can't think of any others....only 22 bucks for all of them. Edited July 27, 2020 by 87Iroc Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fishfiles 20,145 Posted July 27, 2020 I wouldn't worry about re-honing it , and I would use the same rings , a pic of the bore and piston might change my mind though I have used G+H many times , have a unopened box from them in the shed with a bored jug and gaskets right now , I don't remember reading anything in the break in procedures like = Quote " 1,400 rpms immediately to break in " , maybe that is something new ------ I remember reading from them , 100 hours till the engine would be broken in Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
87Iroc 344 Posted July 27, 2020 (edited) Quote Last year it was popping a bit when hot, I thought carb. Replaced carb(45 dollar china carb). Still popping. Throttle cable broke. Used screwdriver with ignition on, zap, everything went dead. (Dont know why I would get an arc between carb and frame....) Replaced all electronics(CDI, Stator, full chassis harness, pickup, and thing above right rear tire on frame...). Cranked a BUNCH! On one cranking event it spun then locked up. Let off starter button and hit again and it cranked again. I dont think they sunk it just before selling it to me. There was not lots of water in oil or rear diff.(rear diff was dry he said so he rebuilt it with seals and such) Only a couple of drops of water in rear diff. None in front diff. None in oil. That is from my friend(with my additional commentary in parenthesis) that I bought the quad from this morning. Most background I've gotten on issues he had that lead to the initial teardown... He did say he tried a cheap China CDI box and blew the fuse. Chased that for a while before he realized what was going on and bought the Honda CDI that's on the quad now. Edited July 27, 2020 by 87Iroc Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shadetree 5,867 Posted July 27, 2020 4 hours ago, 87Iroc said: On another note. This cylinder has been bored out .25 now by G&H. New piston, rings, etc. I've been struggling with the idle and have flooded with fuel at least twice. G&H says to bring it up to 1400 and hold there to break rings in immediately. I've obviously not been able to do that. Do I need to get/borrow a honing tool and hit it quick with a hone to rough it back up(crosshatch still looks good but a few lines in it from ring end gaps) and maybe put new rings in it again or just give it a try as is? I saw someone say they put new rings in whenever the jug is pulled somewhere so I thought I'd check on thoughts there. Another question...Shadetree mentioned replacing oil seals. I was planning on it. Currently putting them in Cart at Rocky Mountain. Is OEM the way to go or one of the aftermarket seal kits I see offered elsewhere? Looks like I found 4...can't think of any others....only 22 bucks for all of them. it's a win or lose now on seals from honda, you may or may not get seals made in japan ?. honda has been out sourcing parts lately, they might be made in japan ?, or they might be made in china ?. but seeing how your making a big order from rocky mountain atv, i would just risk it, and buy everything from them. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
87Iroc 344 Posted July 27, 2020 18 minutes ago, shadetree said: it's a win or lose now on seals from honda, you may or may not get seals made in japan ?. honda has been out sourcing parts lately, they might be made in japan ?, or they might be made in china ?. but seeing how your making a big order from rocky mountain atv, i would just risk it, and buy everything from them. I have 4 seals in the cart. Any I'm missing? These 4 are only 22 bucks. The kits are more than that but I think they include a bunch of o-rings that I've got in my full gasket kit anyway. Input shaft(small on front down low on left), output(big one inside rubber boot), pull start cup seal, and foot shifter seal. Any I'm missing? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
87Iroc 344 Posted July 27, 2020 (edited) On the topic of the rattle in my transmission...whether it be excessive or not. I presume the circled parts in the image are the 'dogs' that I've heard referenced to look for excessive wear on? It appears they are the parts the shift forks engage with. I also don't see any pads or anything on any of these that would wear...so presuming I'm looking for metal wear. Wobbling things last night, gear 23 made a lot of noise...but then I supported ends of shafts so it quieted down(like the shafts had splayed apart some)...but need to investigate more. Edited July 27, 2020 by 87Iroc Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jeepwm69 7,606 Posted July 27, 2020 Yep. 450's aren't known to have problems with dogs rounding off on the gears. Look at the top pic here (the 4 dog gear found 05-08). Notice how those are rounded off a bit compared to the updated 6 dog gear in the next pic? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shadetree 5,867 Posted July 27, 2020 2 hours ago, 87Iroc said: I have 4 seals in the cart. Any I'm missing? These 4 are only 22 bucks. The kits are more than that but I think they include a bunch of o-rings that I've got in my full gasket kit anyway. Input shaft(small on front down low on left), output(big one inside rubber boot), pull start cup seal, and foot shifter seal. Any I'm missing? reverse shaft lever seal 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
87Iroc 344 Posted July 27, 2020 So I'm shopping for a crank here and came across this on Ebay. Its supposedly a new crank that's 70 dollars cheaper than Rocky Mountain ATV. My thought here is to sell my old one for at least a core on Ebay and put a new one in it. This would possibly make it about 50-75 dollars cheaper than a rebuilt one. https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-Honda-Crankshaft-13000-HN0-670/184341041957?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D225085%26meid%3Ddef606e5715144bb97fc6d9ee301db4c%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D15%26mehot%3Dnone%26sd%3D154007966504%26itm%3D184341041957%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057%26brand%3DHonda&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3Acb8ea0c1-d04e-11ea-82ad-76d080bc083b|parentrq%3A9224a8f31730a69d3432dd7fffe32a3b|iid%3A1 Thoughts? I'm ready to snatch it up. Looks like seller deals in lots of old stock from somewhere. Trained eyes see anything in the pics that says this has been run before? I was eyeing the timing sprocket but didn't see anything saying its worn. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
87Iroc 344 Posted July 27, 2020 (edited) These two bearings are hard to spin. they spin but it requires grip even when I wipe oil film off. Do they spin when trans is in neutral? I don’t think so but there’s too many one way bearings and clutches for me to keep track. One on the top is the input shaft for the trans...other one is the one with all the stacked gears on it with 2 shift forks going to it. Uploading video now. other than this it all looked good inside. Edited July 27, 2020 by 87Iroc Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
87Iroc 344 Posted July 28, 2020 (edited) OK. I am proceeding with assumption those two bearings need replaced and ordered them. Thinking of heating case up beside them in hopes they'll come out easier. Saw an article online of how to do it. Just placed order with Rocky Mountain ATV(my stuff is shipping from KY...says it'll be here tomorrow? WTH...cool if its true). I have not ordered crank yet...put offer in on NOS one. See if I can get it or not. If not, I'll order one from RM ATV tomorrow. The one bearing is on back order. (6204U must be standard p/n)....trying to find it elsewhere, but doubt i find something that would have it hear quicker than RMATV. So far, no dice...although it appears used in Civic transmissions so its all over the place for availability. Edited July 28, 2020 by 87Iroc Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shadetree 5,867 Posted July 28, 2020 17 hours ago, 87Iroc said: These two bearings are hard to spin. they spin but it requires grip even when I wipe oil film off. Do they spin when trans is in neutral? I don’t think so but there’s too many one way bearings and clutches for me to keep track. One on the top is the input shaft for the trans...other one is the one with all the stacked gears on it with 2 shift forks going to it. Uploading video now. other than this it all looked good inside. these two bearings DO spin around when running. if they wont spin by hand 360 ?, then replace them. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shadetree 5,867 Posted July 28, 2020 18 hours ago, 87Iroc said: So I'm shopping for a crank here and came across this on Ebay. Its supposedly a new crank that's 70 dollars cheaper than Rocky Mountain ATV. My thought here is to sell my old one for at least a core on Ebay and put a new one in it. This would possibly make it about 50-75 dollars cheaper than a rebuilt one. https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-Honda-Crankshaft-13000-HN0-670/184341041957?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D225085%26meid%3Ddef606e5715144bb97fc6d9ee301db4c%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D15%26mehot%3Dnone%26sd%3D154007966504%26itm%3D184341041957%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057%26brand%3DHonda&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3Acb8ea0c1-d04e-11ea-82ad-76d080bc083b|parentrq%3A9224a8f31730a69d3432dd7fffe32a3b|iid%3A1 Thoughts? I'm ready to snatch it up. Looks like seller deals in lots of old stock from somewhere. Trained eyes see anything in the pics that says this has been run before? I was eyeing the timing sprocket but didn't see anything saying its worn. buy it !. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jeepwm69 7,606 Posted July 28, 2020 18 hours ago, 87Iroc said: So I'm shopping for a crank here and came across this on Ebay. Its supposedly a new crank that's 70 dollars cheaper than Rocky Mountain ATV. My thought here is to sell my old one for at least a core on Ebay and put a new one in it. This would possibly make it about 50-75 dollars cheaper than a rebuilt one. https://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-Honda-Crankshaft-13000-HN0-670/184341041957?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D225085%26meid%3Ddef606e5715144bb97fc6d9ee301db4c%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D15%26mehot%3Dnone%26sd%3D154007966504%26itm%3D184341041957%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057%26brand%3DHonda&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3Acb8ea0c1-d04e-11ea-82ad-76d080bc083b|parentrq%3A9224a8f31730a69d3432dd7fffe32a3b|iid%3A1 Thoughts? I'm ready to snatch it up. Looks like seller deals in lots of old stock from somewhere. Trained eyes see anything in the pics that says this has been run before? I was eyeing the timing sprocket but didn't see anything saying its worn. Send yours to Vince. Cheaper, and the Vesrah rods are better than the OEM rods. You're looking at $225-250 for a rebuilt crank that will be better than the one you're going to buy for $370...... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
87Iroc 344 Posted July 28, 2020 3 hours ago, jeepwm69 said: Send yours to Vince. Cheaper, and the Vesrah rods are better than the OEM rods. You're looking at $225-250 for a rebuilt crank that will be better than the one you're going to buy for $370...... I'm getting recommended both directions obviously. I have a offer in on the ebay rod that's well below asking to see if he'll budge on price. He's ignoring me or he hasn't logged in. I was just sharpening my pencil and I can get it to bince for 15-20 in shipping(original estimate was 50). So cost at Vince's would be 270 total there and back and work on it. Appreciate the advice. I'll see where I end up. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
87Iroc 344 Posted July 28, 2020 On a side note. Rocky Mountain ATV order shipped out today w/in 4 hrs of placing it. See if it makes it tomorrow. So far, impressed, very impressed. @shadetreeI went to Partzillas website and the 6204u they are showing 'ships in 2-3 days' so I'm going to hold and wait on Rocky Mountain ATVs part for now. Many other sites have it, but won't tell me a shipping date...so suspect they order it when the orders placed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fishfiles 20,145 Posted July 28, 2020 Partzilla has messed me up many times now with long ship times , one time it was 6 weeks and lately I see their prices have gone up big time , I will use them for their parts break downs , but I am not ordering from them any more 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shadetree 5,867 Posted July 28, 2020 1 hour ago, Fishfiles said: Partzilla has messed me up many times now with long ship times , one time it was 6 weeks and lately I see their prices have gone up big time , I will use them for their parts break downs , but I am not ordering from them any more i won't bother with partzilla unless i need it very...very bad..and if they have it in stock ?..all orders goes to rocky mountain atv now. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
87Iroc 344 Posted July 28, 2020 (edited) I told Shadetree on the phone that my average order time from Partzilla has been 2 weeks even if I paid for expediting. I had seen Rocky Mountain and surfed their website intially....but totally missed the OEM parts section. I thought all they sold was a few aftermarket items til I saw someone mention OEM parts from them and I went back looking closer. So I went back out to the garage and I popped the main shaft bearing out(just behind clutch packs) as it had come out yesterday and I gingerly pushed it back in. As I spin it, not all the time ,but enough of the time, it fees like the ball bearings are running over pot holes. So looks like another order to RM.I just did a quick tertiary spin on those last night and they felt fine, but looking at everything closely now... And that one is on back order... Edited July 28, 2020 by 87Iroc 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shadetree 5,867 Posted July 28, 2020 1 hour ago, 87Iroc said: I told Shadetree on the phone that my average order time from Partzilla has been 2 weeks even if I paid for expediting. I had seen Rocky Mountain and surfed their website intially....but totally missed the OEM parts section. I thought all they sold was a few aftermarket items til I saw someone mention OEM parts from them and I went back looking closer. So I went back out to the garage and I popped the main shaft bearing out(just behind clutch packs) as it had come out yesterday and I gingerly pushed it back in. As I spin it, not all the time ,but enough of the time, it fees like the ball bearings are running over pot holes. So looks like another order to RM.I just did a quick tertiary spin on those last night and they felt fine, but looking at everything closely now... And that one is on back order... its always best to replace any parts on the inside while your this deep into it !. i think your going about this build in a very good way, plus you are in great hands here !. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fishfiles 20,145 Posted July 28, 2020 I thought I seen some black'ness on them bearings Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
_Wilson_™ 6,566 Posted July 28, 2020 (edited) odd how no one mentioned trying the magnet test in the old oil that was drained from that engine.... that's the 1st thing i do when i change oil, drop a strong magnet in... i use dimple magnetic plugs in every wet sump. i have, and they work great! Quote Magnetic drain plugs are used in industry ....... analysis of the 'black slime' will indicate the state of wear. Steel bushing/bearing wear, crank/cam wear, etc. They should be Standard Equipment on quads ..... credit ^^^^ goes to @Macarena Man Edited July 28, 2020 by _Wilson_™ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
