98 Foreman 450S....Still not found issue

[87Iroc 344]

Yah, after finding that other oddball I was going to price the bearings. Once I get one pulled, I figure they all will come and go pretty easy. The bearings have a weird black to them...but I have no idea what its from. Looks like years of soot has eaten in to the outter shell where its been exposed to the oil and stained them. I will get a pic of a couple up close later. There are no heat marks inside any of the bearings I see. How about the front cam bearing? I believe only replacement of that is a new cam. Correct? It spins free. I've checked it.

 

I have not run a magnet through it. I have never owned the thing w/o fresh oil in it. The previous owner pulled front covers last winter so he was the one that could have run the magnet trick. Total run time is probably a half hour with rough idle since.

 

 

Edited July 28, 2020 by 87Iroc

[Scotticus 777]

 

1 hour ago, _Wilson_™ said:

use dimple magnetic plugs in every wet sump. i have, and they work great! 

 

Good tip on the magnetic drain plug.  I'm gonna order one to install on the next oil change

[Fishfiles 20,145]

47 minutes ago, 87Iroc said:

Yah, after finding that other oddball I was going to price the bearings. Once I get one pulled, I figure they all will come and go pretty easy. The bearings have a weird black to them...but I have no idea what its from. Looks like years of soot has eaten in to the outter shell where its been exposed to the oil and stained them. I will get a pic of a couple up close later. There are no heat marks inside any of the bearings I see. How about the front cam bearing? I believe only replacement of that is a new cam. Correct? It spins free. I've checked it.

 

I have not run a magnet through it. I have never owned the thing w/o fresh oil in it. The previous owner pulled front covers last winter so he was the one that could have run the magnet trick. Total run time is probably a half hour with rough idle since.

 

 

The outer race of that one bearing was especially black and it is the one you say was the roughest rotation , I would think a change of color like that would be from heat ----this bearing was bad and it wasn't as black as yours was 

[_Wilson_™ 6,567]

not to go far off the rails here .... but this pic shows how much matallic engine eating mess the dimple plug attracted out of my 300....  the next oil change looked much much cleaner.... almost as if the the oil was right out of the jug.... after a years operation... 

[_Wilson_™ 6,567]

On July 26, 2020 at 5:59 PM, 87Iroc said:

they do but it’s not heat it’s like Soot or something.  I think it wipes off.  There has been black rtv all over inside case as well.  Not tons but some.  

 

this might be were the black soot is coming from ? but from the thread ... seams there are several issues going on. 

[87Iroc 344]

Suppose it was run without oil for a bit? Possible.  I just assumed it was a coating but could be from heat.  I was expecting heat in the inner part rather than the ball carrier.  
 

here are some pics of the bearings.  The inner ball holder things don’t wipe clean but just generally appear dark but not bluish or anything.  
 

top pic is one that feels like speed bumps sometimes.  Likely debris maybe as it comes and goes. Bottom is front main bearing(with flash hence the shiny ness)

 

Edited July 29, 2020 by 87Iroc

[_Wilson_™ 6,567]

blueing is what I've seen in the past ... with ball (bearing / roler) bearings .... but this caught my eye....  looks as these are marks from driving this one bearing in ... 

[87Iroc 344]

33 minutes ago, _Wilson_™ said:

 

this might be were the black soot is coming from ? but from the thread ... seams there are several issues going on. 

considering lack of a smoking gun of reason it wouldn’t rev Or run right previous owner has suggested I arrange a excorcism.  

[87Iroc 344]

13 minutes ago, _Wilson_™ said:

blueing is what I've seen in the past ... with ball (bearing / roler) bearings .... but this caught my eye....  looks as these are marks from driving this one bearing in ... 

I will look.  That’s the front main.  Surely it’s never been changed(I saw not knowing really) but I agree.  It looks like something hit it 

Edited July 29, 2020 by 87Iroc

[shadetree 5,869]

i am leaning towards a sunk motor at one point !. would explain all the bearing colors, marks, so forth and so on. PO prob flushed it before you got your hands on it, but by then, running it after a sinking, ruined the bottom end. make sure to carefully clean/flush/wash/clean/flush how ever many times as it takes to get that bottom engine cases, as well as any other parts !..totally clean !!!. any kind of sand, grit ?..will destroy a lower engine and bearings !!!!. 

[87Iroc 344]

6 hours ago, shadetree said:

i am leaning towards a sunk motor at one point !. would explain all the bearing colors, marks, so forth and so on. PO prob flushed it before you got your hands on it, but by then, running it after a sinking, ruined the bottom end. make sure to carefully clean/flush/wash/clean/flush how ever many times as it takes to get that bottom engine cases, as well as any other parts !..totally clean !!!. any kind of sand, grit ?..will destroy a lower engine and bearings !!!!. 

 

I haven't found any sand inside the case, but will invesitage the 'slime' under the pickup and see. I plan, since its torn down way farther than I ever envisioned to clean the inside and outside of the case before I start reassembling. 

 

All of the ball bearings are on order. Don't shoot but I'm spending so much I decided to skip the shift drum bearings. They seem to roll fine and was trying to save 60 bucks. They just go back and forth and aren't really used much...so figured it'd be OK. Feel free to quote this if I'm tearing it back down in a year to replace these bearings. 🙂

 

My first RM order is sitting in Louisville today. Suspect it will be in my hands tomorrow or Friday at latest. Way better than Partzilla even though it wasn't 1 day like they had said. 

 

Now to sort out how to remove the bearings. I found that remover tool at Harbor Freight. Anyone had any luck with heating the case?

Edited July 29, 2020 by 87Iroc

[jeepwm69 7,611]

Bread trick work on those?  I think heating the case they'll fall right out, but if not, you could try the bread trick.  I'd do that before I'd get a HF blind bearing puller.

[87Iroc 344]

1 hour ago, jeepwm69 said:

Bread trick work on those?  I think heating the case they'll fall right out, but if not, you could try the bread trick.  I'd do that before I'd get a HF blind bearing puller.

 

lol. I forgot about the 'bread trick'. I used toilet paper....i 'think' on the one successful pilot bearing/bushing I ever pulled out. 

 

 

[_Wilson_™ 6,567]

or paper towels ?? i think i know where your going with this idea jeep, which i have used in certain applications 

Edited July 29, 2020 by _Wilson_™

[_Wilson_™ 6,567]

I'm just a tad bit too late on my post... lol

[shadetree 5,869]

4 hours ago, 87Iroc said:

 

I haven't found any sand inside the case, but will invesitage the 'slime' under the pickup and see. I plan, since its torn down way farther than I ever envisioned to clean the inside and outside of the case before I start reassembling. 

 

All of the ball bearings are on order. Don't shoot but I'm spending so much I decided to skip the shift drum bearings. They seem to roll fine and was trying to save 60 bucks. They just go back and forth and aren't really used much...so figured it'd be OK. Feel free to quote this if I'm tearing it back down in a year to replace these bearings. 🙂

 

My first RM order is sitting in Louisville today. Suspect it will be in my hands tomorrow or Friday at latest. Way better than Partzilla even though it wasn't 1 day like they had said. 

 

Now to sort out how to remove the bearings. I found that remover tool at Harbor Freight. Anyone had any luck with heating the case?

i would not worry about that shift drum bearing, i've never seen one go bad ?, like you said..they do not spin 360 when running ?, no need to worry about it.

[87Iroc 344]

20 hours ago, shadetree said:

i am leaning towards a sunk motor at one point !. would explain all the bearing colors, marks, so forth and so on. PO prob flushed it before you got your hands on it, but by then, running it after a sinking, ruined the bottom end. make sure to carefully clean/flush/wash/clean/flush how ever many times as it takes to get that bottom engine cases, as well as any other parts !..totally clean !!!. any kind of sand, grit ?..will destroy a lower engine and bearings !!!!. 

 

 

Cleaned, scrubbed, sprayed, flushed all the cases this evening. Hands are cut up from Honda's sharp edges. Its not Shadetree pretty, but got most of the mud off of it and I don't get oily just touching the housings. 

 

The gasket between the cases was hard as a rock, as was the 'inner rear cover' gasket. Assume those 2 were originals. 

 

Those marks on that bearing were metal chips of some sort. I couldn't even see them looking at it tonight. Everything wiped off and it all looks good. No idea what they were really.

 

I pulled the shift lever out to replace the seal and to wash the part. Do I need a new #21 shown below? Honda manual says replace. Looking at it....I know why they want it replaced, but not sure its super critical. One one tab was bent up. Figure I can bend the other tang up this time.

Edited July 30, 2020 by 87Iroc

[shadetree 5,869]

12 hours ago, 87Iroc said:

 

 

Cleaned, scrubbed, sprayed, flushed all the cases this evening. Hands are cut up from Honda's sharp edges. Its not Shadetree pretty, but got most of the mud off of it and I don't get oily just touching the housings. 

 

The gasket between the cases was hard as a rock, as was the 'inner rear cover' gasket. Assume those 2 were originals. 

 

Those marks on that bearing were metal chips of some sort. I couldn't even see them looking at it tonight. Everything wiped off and it all looks good. No idea what they were really.

 

I pulled the shift lever out to replace the seal and to wash the part. Do I need a new #21 shown below? Honda manual says replace. Looking at it....I know why they want it replaced, but not sure its super critical. One one tab was bent up. Figure I can bend the other tang up this time.

re-use it, i do all the time, unless you break the tang off when bending it back ?, re-use it !.

[87Iroc 344]

Hey.  Random question.  What would engine run like with a blown head gasket?

[shadetree 5,869]

39 minutes ago, 87Iroc said:

Hey.  Random question.  What would engine run like with a blown head gasket?

lol..it won't !. now...if its leaking slightly ?, it will run like crap, because your losing compression.

[87Iroc 344]

Went out and checked head for flatness as you suggested and with best straightedge I have it looks ok.  Here is pic of combustion face.  Dark area predates my ownership of it.  Probably common to do that under exhaust port.  gasket shows no issues there.  
 

[shadetree 5,869]

53 minutes ago, 87Iroc said:

Went out and checked head for flatness as you suggested and with best straightedge I have it looks ok.  Here is pic of combustion face.  Dark area predates my ownership of it.  Probably common to do that under exhaust port.  gasket shows no issues there.  
 

looks normal too me bro. dremel with a wire brush on it, some scrubbing, all that will come out.

[shadetree 5,869]

here is one i cleaned up, and it was 10 times worse than what you got !..lol.

[87Iroc 344]

Rocky Mountain shipment showed up 3 days early today.  Any special instructions on driving in new bearings? I have a bearing/seal driver kit.  
 

I remember Shadetree saying support case.  On two I saw a seal on one side. Put those toward cases.  Any other special notes?

 

 

[87Iroc 344]

Per your question on the phone @shadetree...all but 1 seal is Made in Japan on this. ONe small seal says 'made in China' on it. All bearings say Japan.