Start in gear mod for 450 Foremans, 350 Ranchers and 300's

[jeepwm69 7,212]

Figured I would post this up here, since it's something that I like to have on all my machines.

 

I picked up a used Foreman 500 (05-11) brake master cylinder and brake lever, which has two micro switches built into it.  This is for an 05 350 Rancher, which has one microswitch on the stock brake lever for the brake lights.  You hook those wires onto one of the two microswitches on the Foreman brake lever, and hook a relay up to the other microswitch for the start in gear mod.

Grounded wire goes to swtich on brake lever

Wire coming off of other side of switch on brake lever goes to relay 85

Black/ brown wire coming off of 15A lights fuse goes to relay 86

Relay 87 is grounded

Snip wire going to neutral light

Relay 87A goes to neutral light

Relay 30 goes to wire you snipped off that used to go to neutral light.

 

This allows you to start the machine in gear, but only with the brake lever held back.  Will still start in Neutral with the lever held back or not held back (as normal).

 

[jeepwm69 7,212]

I did the same mod on my daughter's 300, again using the Foreman brake lever so I could also add brake lights.

 

On the 300 the wiring is as follows.

Get your relay.

Ground wire (under frame bolt) to Foreman brake micro switch

Other side of micro switch to relay 85

Ground relay 87

12v pos switched power source to relay 86 (pink ignition wire)

Snip wire going to neutral light.

Relay 87a goes to the snipped (-) Neutral light wire which should be Light Green/Red and goes to bulb

Relay 30 connects to the snipped end of the Light Green/Red wire that goes to the solenoid (neutral light wire you snipped that goes back into the harness) AND you need to run a jumper to the green wire going to the CDI.

 

Then use the other microswich for your brake lights.  I'll post another thread here

 

 

Edited December 3, 2019 by jeepwm69

[Mac102004 424]

Good write up Jeep. Which year 300 is that for? As you know there are wiring differences over the years. 98-00 300's would be more similar to the 00-03 Ranchers. 

 

I usually just take the lazy way out and ground the N wire so it shoes N all the time. Your way would be the CORRECT way to do it.

[jeepwm69 7,212]

That's for a 97 Mac.  All the 300's I plan on keeping are 2nd gens so I can use the Rick's CDI's and the 424's (without finding or modifying one to fit a first gen).

 

But you are correct, 3rd gens would be more like the 350 method.

 

As much as I'd like to take credit for it, I just had the idea.  Retro and Melatv came up with the actual "how to"

[jeepwm69 7,212]

On 12/4/2019 at 9:15 AM, jeepwm69 said:

That's for a 97 Mac.  All the 300's I plan on keeping are 2nd gens so I can use the Rick's CDI's and the 424's (without finding or modifying one to fit a first gen).

 

But you are correct, 3rd gens would be more like the 350 method.

 

As much as I'd like to take credit for it, I just had the idea.  Retro and Melatv came up with the actual "how to"

 

 

Planning on doing this to my buddy's 450 project I'm working on too.  Don't think I'll do brake lights too, just stick with the start in gear mod. 

 

Looking at the wiring diagram, looks like the Light Green with Red tracer going to the meter would be the same as the 350 Rancher, correct?

 

@Melatv @retro@AKATV

[retro 3,871]

2 hours ago, jeepwm69 said:

Looking at the wiring diagram, looks like the Light Green with Red tracer going to the meter would be the same as the 350 Rancher, correct?

 

Yup, supply a ground through your relay for the Light Green/Red is all ya gotta do on a 450FM

[retro 3,871]

This is a popular mod that everyone likes, so I end up doing one or two of them every year on early Honda's that I work on for friends & neighbors. We likely have posted this info already in various threads here... but I'm gonna add some pics to this thread anyway to help show what @jeepwm69 have explained above... and I'll include the additional step that all of the early FE/TE models require.

 

This is the pinout diagram for the standard 5-terminal automotive relay that you'll need. Don't be concerned with the amperage rating of your relay, any of the 5-terminal types will work.

 

 

Here is a diagram provided by @Melatvshowing how the Lg/R wire must be snipped near the display and how that snipped Lg/R wire must be connected to relay terminals #87a and #30:

 

 

• Ground a length of wire to the frame and connect the other end to one of the switches on brake lever
• Wire coming off of other side of that switch on brake lever connects to relay #85 terminal (and optionally jumper that same wire from relay #85 terminal to relay #87 terminal - which provides a single ground relay wiring shortcut)
• Switched positive voltage goes to relay #86 terminal - You can get switched battery voltage from the accessory circuit White/Black wire, the Pink ignition switch wire or the Black/Brown lighting circuit wire that goes to the display.
• Relay #87 terminal must be grounded - either wired to a bolt on the frame or jumpered over to relay terminal #85 as mentioned above
• Snip the Light Green/Red wire going to neutral light in the display harness
• Run a wire from relay #87A terminal to the snipped end of the wire that goes to the neutral light in the display
• Run a wire from relay #30 terminal to the remaining end of the wire that you snipped where it comes out of the harness (See Melatv's diagram above - ignore the ground reference in that diagram, we have changed things up a bit since...)

That's all for FM/TM models but if your Honda is an FE or TE model (ES), an additional wiring step is required to prevent the shift ECM from faulting and shutting down when the brake lever is pulled, while in any gear except neutral. What happens is the LG/R neutral wire that goes to the shift ECM gets grounded when the brake lever is pulled... and if the transmission is in any other gear except for neutral, the ECM shuts down because the ECM is receiving two gear shift signals - one from the gear shift switch signalling the proper gear - and one signalling the ECM that the transmission has been shifted into neutral, as well. The ECM shuts down and refuses to shift when that happens.

 

So here is a workaround fix for that problem:

One more wire from the relay #87a terminal must be run to the ECU harness and connected to the Lg/R wire as shown, after cutting that wire near the ECM connector.

 

 

As shown leave the harness side of the Lg/R wire disconnected after snipping it. Seal the orphaned wire end up with adhesive-lined shrink tubing to insulate and protect the wire from oxygen and/or water exposure.

 

You can find a good used master cylinder that includes the micro switches and the rubber boot at powersportsnation.com for about $21 shipped at the time of this posting (I just ordered another one this weekend for my hunting buddy's new to him 350 Rancher). The '04-'07 Rancher 400AT (TRX400FA), the '03-'05 650 Rincon and the '05-'11 TRX500 Foreman models share the same master cylinder with the switches that you need. OEM sub-harnesses for the switches are available used as well. Have fun!

[jeepwm69 7,212]

Just hooked up a relay on my buddy’s 2004 450FM.  
 

It turns over in gear with brake lever pulled but doesn’t have spark. 
 

In Neutral it fires right up.

 

I tied into the green/red wire going to the meter.  Is there a diode or something keeping that ground from being picked up by the ECU?

 

@retro @AKATV @Melatv

[Fishfiles 19,707]

There is a diode in the fuse box that looks like a blade fuse , I had one go  bad before and it would not start  ----   it is one of them 3 way diodes 

[jeepwm69 7,212]

I tied the ground wire coming off the brake lever into the green/red wire going into the ECU as well as the green/red wire going into the harness (where I snipped the green/ref going to meter and wired in relay) and it works now. 

[Kibblesnbits 9]

On 12/3/2019 at 9:39 PM, Mac102004 said:

Good write up Jeep. Which year 300 is that for? As you know there are wiring differences over the years. 98-00 300's would be more similar to the 00-03 Ranchers. 

 

I usually just take the lazy way out and ground the N wire so it shoes N all the time. Your way would be the CORRECT way to do it.

Tell me more about this cheat method, can I just splice a ground with a Toggle switch to the neutral light and then start in gear?

[JDD 0]

On 4/25/2022 at 7:20 PM, retro said:

This is a popular mod that everyone likes, so I end up doing one or two of them every year on early Honda's that I work on for friends & neighbors. We likely have posted this info already in various threads here... but I'm gonna add some pics to this thread anyway to help show what @jeepwm69 have explained above... and I'll include the additional step that all of the early FE/TE models require.

 

This is the pinout diagram for the standard 5-terminal automotive relay that you'll need. Don't be concerned with the amperage rating of your relay, any of the 5-terminal types will work.

 

 

Here is a diagram provided by @Melatvshowing how the Lg/R wire must be snipped near the display and how that snipped Lg/R wire must be connected to relay terminals #87a and #30:

 

does this work for a 98 honda foreman 450 es?

 

 

• Ground a length of wire to the frame and connect the other end to one of the switches on brake lever
• Wire coming off of other side of that switch on brake lever connects to relay #85 terminal (and optionally jumper that same wire from relay #85 terminal to relay #87 terminal - which provides a single ground relay wiring shortcut)
• Switched positive voltage goes to relay #86 terminal - You can get switched battery voltage from the accessory circuit White/Black wire, the Pink ignition switch wire or the Black/Brown lighting circuit wire that goes to the display.
• Relay #87 terminal must be grounded - either wired to a bolt on the frame or jumpered over to relay terminal #85 as mentioned above
• Snip the Light Green/Red wire going to neutral light in the display harness
• Run a wire from relay #87A terminal to the snipped end of the wire that goes to the neutral light in the display
• Run a wire from relay #30 terminal to the remaining end of the wire that you snipped where it comes out of the harness (See Melatv's diagram above - ignore the ground reference in that diagram, we have changed things up a bit since...)

That's all for FM/TM models but if your Honda is an FE or TE model (ES), an additional wiring step is required to prevent the shift ECM from faulting and shutting down when the brake lever is pulled, while in any gear except neutral. What happens is the LG/R neutral wire that goes to the shift ECM gets grounded when the brake lever is pulled... and if the transmission is in any other gear except for neutral, the ECM shuts down because the ECM is receiving two gear shift signals - one from the gear shift switch signalling the proper gear - and one signalling the ECM that the transmission has been shifted into neutral, as well. The ECM shuts down and refuses to shift when that happens.

 

So here is a workaround fix for that problem:

One more wire from the relay #87a terminal must be run to the ECU harness and connected to the Lg/R wire as shown, after cutting that wire near the ECM connector.

 

 

As shown leave the harness side of the Lg/R wire disconnected after snipping it. Seal the orphaned wire end up with adhesive-lined shrink tubing to insulate and protect the wire from oxygen and/or water exposure.

 

You can find a good used master cylinder that includes the micro switches and the rubber boot at powersportsnation.com for about $21 shipped at the time of this posting (I just ordered another one this weekend for my hunting buddy's new to him 350 Rancher). The '04-'07 Rancher 400AT (TRX400FA), the '03-'05 650 Rincon and the '05-'11 TRX500 Foreman models share the same master cylinder with the switches that you need. OEM sub-harnesses for the switches are available used as well. Have fun!

 

[JDD 0]

does this work for a 98 honda 450 es?

 

[retro 3,871]

14 minutes ago, JDD said:

does this work for a 98 honda 450 es?

 

 

Hi JDD, welcome to ATVHonda! Yes this mod works on your 98 450 ES. You'll have to snip the Lg/R wire near the shift ECM and connect the ECM side of that wire to terminal 87a on the 5-terminal relay as explained above. Be sure to seal up the tag end of that wire real good.

[Fishfiles 19,707]

Welcome JDD !

[JDD 0]

  

Does this do the same thing? I tried one of these and it did not work. I did the start in gear mod by grounding a couple of wires and finally got spark it ran and drove but electric shift did not work, but as soon as i stopped it lost spark and im back a ground zero, be at this for several months getting really ! at this thing and want to burn it LOL

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 21, 2022 by JDD

[JDD 0]

Where are these switches on the brake lever you speak of, the front break only has the master cylinder and no wires

 

[JDD 0]

ok found the wires on the left side, i was looking on the wrong side LOL

 

[retro 3,871]

6 hours ago, JDD said:

  

Does this do the same thing? I tried one of these and it did not work. I did the start in gear mod by grounding a couple of wires and finally got spark it ran and drove but electric shift did not work, but as soon as i stopped it lost spark and im back a ground zero, be at this for several months getting really ! at this thing and want to burn it LOL

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nope, that kit has nothing to do with the start in any gear mod. Does your ES shift system work or no....?  The ES system must be fully functional, the start in any gear mod just adds a feature to a working ES.

 

2 hours ago, JDD said:

ok found the wires on the left side, i was looking on the wrong side LOL

 

 

The left side handlebar switch is for the reverse lockout. In order to add the start in any gear mod you must buy (swap on) a master cylinder with switches from one of the Honda models listed in the instructions in posts above. You'll need to fix your ES system first though, if yours is not working right.

[toodeep 1,732]

Just now, retro said:

 

 

The left side handlebar switch is for the reverse lockout. In order to add the start in any gear mod you must buy (swap on) a master cylinder with switches from one of the Honda models listed in the instructions in posts above.

 

Could they replace the banjo bolt with one with a built in pressure switch? Those use to be around $10 when i used them for brake light switches and easy to swap out. 

[retro 3,871]

2 hours ago, toodeep said:

 

Could they replace the banjo bolt with one with a built in pressure switch? Those use to be around $10 when i used them for brake light switches and easy to swap out. 

 

Yup, those would work too!

[_Wilson_™ 6,432]

Welcome JDD! ...... Man i just lost my old handle jay10..., and now a new member with what my friends call me (JD, 1st two initials of my real name) so now i loose that as well ?!.... ... LOL! 

 

Ironic.... And too funny....  LHM.... If i loose Wilson.......lol!