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texas123

1985 Honda ATC 200X smokes a lot

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Posted (edited)

I picked up a non running 1985 Honda ATC 200X last night (3 wheeler) and got it running this morning. It wouldn't rev more than 1/4 throttle and would just blow white smoke, so I figured rings maybe. I removed the engine from the bike & tore it apart and found this. I can feel the scoring, mainly on the cylinder, and the piston top and vavles have grainy, sandy substances on them. I've never tore into an engine before so forgive any dumb questions. What's the next step? I did see a website that would bore the cylinder and provide a matching piston & gaskets for $155 + shipping both ways. http://www.ghdiscountatvsupply.com/1983-1985-honda-200x-engine-motor-top-kit-machining-service/

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Edited by texas123
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sounds like it was sunk too me ?, or ran without oil ?. either way, engine needs to be split to clean all that metal shavings out of it, then put back together. while you have it apart, replace the cam chain, inspect the cam lobes, rocker faces, any damage !. yes, g&h supply ( so i hear ? ) does good work. make sure to check the connecting rod out for any lower or upper play with the wrist pin in upper area.

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Hi: Big Welcome Here -- Like Shadetree has posted -- tear down top to bottom.

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i agree.... kind of looks like some ... sandy grit along the cylinder wall. 

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Looks like ran in the sand alot and seized the piston at one point from the looks of the cylinder walls and piston skirts. Engine seizure is caused by running it very hot to where the piston expands to much. So it was run hard and hot at one point for sure. Bottom end rebuild would be best as the crank bearings could have taken a hit when it seized. You are gunna get a crash course in full engine rebuild on this one. How are your wrench turning skills?

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57 minutes ago, shadetree said:

sounds like it was sunk too me ?, or ran without oil ?. either way, engine needs to be split to clean all that metal shavings out of it, then put back together. while you have it apart, replace the cam chain, inspect the cam lobes, rocker faces, any damage !. yes, g&h supply ( so i hear ? ) does good work. make sure to check the connecting rod out for any lower or upper play with the wrist pin in upper area.

 

5 minutes ago, SlammedRanger said:

Looks like ran in the sand alot and seized the piston at one point from the looks of the cylinder walls and piston skirts. Engine seizure is caused by running it very hot to where this piston expands to much. So it was run hard and hot at one point for sure. Bottom end rebuild would be best as the crank bearings could have taken a hit when it seized. You are gunna get a crash course in full engine rebuild on this one. How are your wrench turning skills?

Meh, valve adjustments on bikes; transmission, brakes, oil on our cars, so nothing mechanic worthy. But I figure I'm just changing parts at this point. My only concearn is that I don't get it together correctly and destroy what I had remachined.

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If you dont already have one i would suggest getting a factory service manual. We may have it for free pdf download in our manual section on the forum. You will want to take alot of pictures and you will need a torque wrench. Alot of what you will need to do is cleaning. Scraping gasket surfaces. Also you will want to check all the bottom end bearings while you have it apart. The hardest part about splitting cases is the transmission. You are best off removing it all as one lump in both hands and keep it togeather. Getting shift forks in can sometimes be a bit of a bear aswell. Aside from that ask alot of questions. We are all here to help and really genuinely enjoy helping others. That honda should be running like new in no time!

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Welcome to the sight Texas. That is a beautiful 200x you have there. Definitely worth more than you traded for it. Shade and slammedranger have you started in the right direction. Those old ATCs are easy to work on. Best advice I can give you right now is to not skimp on parts. Replace all the bearings and seal there are while you have it apart with high quality parts. After 35 years, you can bet they are a bit tired. Unfortunately when it comes to the bottom end on that, outside of some general hardware, you will most likely need to buy used parts for it. In the transmission, if all the gears and shift shafts are good, they most common thing to wear on them are the shift forks. You will want to mic them to see if they are in spec. A lot f the parts between the 200x, FourTrax 200sx, and the ATC 200s, and possibly the early trx200 were either the same or could be interchanged. Surprisingly, Rockymountainatvmc.com still shows the factory crank, most of the seals, bearings, thrust washers, and shift shafts still available, along with just about everything for the head, including the head itself. There is something to be said about those OEM parts. They lasted this long, and would last just as long again if maintained. The old 80s Hondas were the best for a reason. Too bad they don’t build them as tough as they did back then anymore. 

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Posted (edited)

I shipped the head & cylinder out on August 8 to G&H, and they said it's about 10 days before they can ship them back. I've decided to not split the case. What should I be doing now while waiting on the parts? I've cleaned and cleaned, have the fuel tank filled with apple cider vinegar, bled the brakes, but is there anything else I should be looking into? thanks.

 

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Edited by texas123

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2 minutes ago, texas123 said:

I shipped the head & cylinder out on August 8 to G&H, and they said it's about 10 days before they can ship them back. I've decided to not split the case. What should I be doing now while waiting on the parts? I've cleaned and cleaned, but is there anything else I should be looking into? thanks.

 

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i think you are making a huge mistake not splitting the cases , and not going through it, cleaning it all out ?, but hey..it belongs to you..do as you wish..just dont come back on here asking whats this loud noise i am hearing from the bottom of engine ?!..my golden rule : if i dig into a motor at all ?, i go all in..or i dont go at all !.

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Just now, shadetree said:

i think you are making a huge mistake not splitting the cases , and not going through it, cleaning it all out ?, but hey..it belongs to you..do as you wish..just dont come back on here asking whats this loud noise i am hearing from the bottom of engine ?!..my golden rule : if i dig into a motor at all ?, i go all in..or i dont go at all !.

Ugg, I was hoping you wouldn't say that. Let me think about it again. It's just soooo hot and humid now. If I open the case, would I have to remove everything or just hose her down with cleaners?

 

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15 minutes ago, texas123 said:

Ugg, I was hoping you wouldn't say that. Let me think about it again. It's just soooo hot and humid now. If I open the case, would I have to remove everything or just hose her down with cleaners?

 

it would be very wise to remove everything, check all the bearings for any odd play ?, replace any oil seals that you can still get while the cases are split. you do not have to pull the tranny all apart, but you will need to remove it from the cases, so you can wash out the cases real good, inspect the oil pump, flush it all out. take lots of before tear down pics as you tear it down, in case ya do not have a service manual ? ( which you really should have on hand ! ). fresh, wet clutch approved engine oil when you get it back together. parts list : complete engine gasket kit, complete engine oil seal kit, a D.I.D. cam chain is a must have !. tube of yamabond for the rocker box, spark plug, engine oil ( wet clutch approved ! ), air filter. may even want to toss in new front and rear sprockets, as well as a o-ring chain. brake pads front and back, fresh brake fluid. in case ya missed it here ?, i do a complete rebuild..i do not do stuff half way..its a waste of my time, i do it right the first time, or i wont do it. try to stick with oem parts from honda unless you can not buy oem from honda ?. no excuse for china parts !!.

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5 hours ago, texas123 said:

I've decided to not split the case.

 

I know you are going back and forth on this but I think you should do it.

It really isn't that much more work or cost in material compared to not doing it and being in a worse spot than when you bought it even after all this initial work.

Like the others have mentioned it will be the right decision in the long run.

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Fuel tank is clean! 2 days and 2 gallons of apple cider vinegar & an occasional sloshing removed almost all of the rust. I should have taken a before picture, but it did remove probably 95% of the rust/browning on the inside of the tank, so it really works well. I dumped the vinegar and flushed everything with soapy water, let it sit out in the sun to dry and used my leaf blower as well, then poured in a few oz of Marvel Mystery Oil. I ran a little through the petcock. The fuel that was in there was nasty brown and there's no fuel filter other than the petcock screen, which was filthy as well.

Still waiting on the cylinder and head from G&H Discount ATV Parts. Hopefully next week.

 

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Posted (edited)

Very nice trike. I would heed the advice of others...

 

ive learned the hard way all my life..

 

 

Do it RIGHT, Or.. Do it TWICE!!

Edited by Wheeler
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Got the parts from G&H Discount ATV; Looks good I guess & a 3 week turn around time. Total cost with shipping is $350, which includes bore, head work, piston & gasket set. 

Anyway, I cleaned the cylinder with soapy water as the instructions said, installed the piston rings, and sprayed everything down with WD-40 to prevent rusting. I'll start assembling when the humidity or temperature drops below 95% or 95 degrees.

The gaskets kit seems to have a few extra o-rings and the paper gaskets don't say "top", so I'm assuming the print goes up? I think 2 o-rings are for the valve inspection covers, and one is for the oil passage in the cylinder, copper for exhaust, but what would the others be for? 

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48 minutes ago, texas123 said:

Got the parts from G&H Discount ATV; Looks good I guess & a 3 week turn around time. Total cost with shipping is $350, which includes bore, head work, piston & gasket set. 

Anyway, I cleaned the cylinder with soapy water as the instructions said, installed the piston rings, and sprayed everything down with WD-40 to prevent rusting. I'll start assembling when the humidity or temperature drops below 95% or 95 degrees.

The gaskets kit seems to have a few extra o-rings and the paper gaskets don't say "top", so I'm assuming the print goes up? I think 2 o-rings are for the valve inspection covers, and one is for the oil passage in the cylinder, copper for exhaust, but what would the others be for? 

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large black o-ring goes on bottom of cylinder around the sleeve on outside in groove. green o-ring goes around dowel pin in head gasket. two larger black o-rings for the valve caps. one black o-ring is for the intake boot to cylinder. i am not sure what the last black o-ring is for ?. as for the gaskets, they will only lay on the base and head one way, all you need to do is line the cut-outs up correctly, they will only lay flat one way, if you put it down wrong ?, you will see how it fits once down on the surface.

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1 hour ago, texas123 said:

Anyway, I cleaned the cylinder with soapy water as the instructions said, installed the piston rings, and sprayed everything down with WD-40 to prevent rusting.

 

Scrub that cylinder really good again with a plastic brush using hot, soapy water to be sure that ya get all of the machining grit out of the bore. Then oil the bore with motor oil and wipe out the excess oil using a clean, white paper towel. If you see any particles (or darkening of the oil) come off on your paper towel, then ya gotta scrub it thoroughly again. This is the most important step in your top end refresh! Thanks for pics!

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8 hours ago, shadetree said:

large black o-ring goes on bottom of cylinder around the sleeve on outside in groove. green o-ring goes around dowel pin in head gasket. two larger black o-rings for the valve caps. one black o-ring is for the intake boot to cylinder. i am not sure what the last black o-ring is for ?. as for the gaskets, they will only lay on the base and head one way, all you need to do is line the cut-outs up correctly, they will only lay flat one way, if you put it down wrong ?, you will see how it fits once down on the surface.

Thanks Shadetree and everybody.

I was able to work on the engine and help the kids with virtual school (thanks corona).

Anyway, I did some research & could not find where that large o-ring went. It has to be for a different bike since it's much larger than the steel cylinder liner. I looked at the schematic drawings & it wasn't listed that I could see.

Also, I tightened the 8mm nuts to 28 nM; it felt like the cylinder studs wanted to snap.

I've attached a parts link since I couldn't see where the large o-ring went & photo of my progress. Thanks again for the help.

https://www.hondapartshouse.com/oemparts/l/hon/50541771f870021c54bef62a/1985-atc200x-a-parts

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20 hours ago, texas123 said:

Thanks Shadetree and everybody.

I was able to work on the engine and help the kids with virtual school (thanks corona).

Anyway, I did some research & could not find where that large o-ring went. It has to be for a different bike since it's much larger than the steel cylinder liner. I looked at the schematic drawings & it wasn't listed that I could see.

Also, I tightened the 8mm nuts to 28 nM; it felt like the cylinder studs wanted to snap.

I've attached a parts link since I couldn't see where the large o-ring went & photo of my progress. Thanks again for the help.

https://www.hondapartshouse.com/oemparts/l/hon/50541771f870021c54bef62a/1985-atc200x-a-parts

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i see that the large o-ring goes on the c.d.i cover--->https://www.hondapartshouse.com/oemparts/a/hon/506f8be0f8700229747b9521/pulse-generator .

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Is that RTV silly'cone all smushing out the rocker cover , think maybe the same amount is smushing out the inside and will wind up blocking  the case screen , which is already , might be clogged up , hmmmmm !!! 

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Got it running well tonight. It took twice as long putting everything together than tearing it apart. The only issue I had was the petcock started leaking when I turn it on. I also had some conflicting info about the valve clearances being 0.05 mm or 0.08 mm, so I set them to 0.05, but they sound tight, so I'll readjust to 0.08 mm tomorrow and try to get a new petcock.

The silicone was just thick on the one side; I figured since it was dry there I would gunk it up well . Around the camshaft oil passages has much less silicone overflow. 

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5 hours ago, texas123 said:

Got it running well tonight. It took twice as long putting everything together than tearing it apart. The only issue I had was the petcock started leaking when I turn it on. I also had some conflicting info about the valve clearances being 0.05 mm or 0.08 mm, so I set them to 0.05, but they sound tight, so I'll readjust to 0.08 mm tomorrow and try to get a new petcock.

The silicone was just thick on the one side; I figured since it was dry there I would gunk it up well . Around the camshaft oil passages has much less silicone overflow. 

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never....NEVER USE RTV SEALANT ON AN ATV ENGINE !!.

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Man. I'm glad you got it running but I'm honestly cringing looking over those pictures.

 

Anything that smashes out and makes its way into the oil will make its way into a screen or filter. It is just a matter of how much and whether it will affect anything.

If that engine is filled properly and the valves are adjusted but the top end is loud like it is starving for oil you will know why.

 

My recommendation if you are not going to redo it all is to change the oil three or four times in the first hundred miles.

Edited by oh400ex
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