Adjusted Valves runs and sounds poorly

[bcsman 1,382]

freebo did you not clean the engine when it was out and apart?

[Fishfiles 20,145]

So that we are all on the same page ---- This is what I get out of it from reading back , since the upper rebuild , when cold the engine starts right up , sounds great , no noises , runs great -----   when hot the engine will spin over fine with no drag or slowing of the engine when spinning  , but will not start up  , till it cools off , when it does start up again everything sounds great ?  

 

 

 

If it is the case that it spins over the same hot as cold , just won't run when hot ,  I would carry an extra spark plug and when it doesn't want to start again , disconnect the spark plug wire from the spark plug in the engine and stuck the extra plug into the boot and ground it on the engine , spin it over and verify it has good fire , if it does have good fire , then I would pull the plug out the engine and see if it is wet or dry  

 

[freebo86 291]

I’ve tested the spark plug before under these conditions and there is always spark. Plug is neither wet or dry previously.
 

Im honestly tapped out. Going to check the cooler, I think it may be covered with dry mud from recollection and I’ll spray it off. At that point this machine is going. No more no sense. 

 

Just reading the replies, once again the possibilities are endless here.

Edited March 17, 2021 by freebo86

[_Wilson_™ 6,567]

i recall a spark hot ot cold, and going back over the pics the engine was cleaned (cooling fins) but don't give in yet, you rebuilt the engine, and the bike runs good, you've come along ways, i doubt the oil cooler would cause this, because you were riding in a cold climate, and have a spark hot or cold, but yes i agree it does need the mud washed out (if there is any) it's got to be ether a fuel /carb  issue, or heat related short. 

Edited March 17, 2021 by _Wilson_™

[retro 4,048]

12 minutes ago, freebo86 said:

Im honestly tapped out. Going to check the cooler, I think it may be covered with dry mud from recollection and I’ll spray it off. At that point this machine is going. No more no sense. 
 

Just reading the replies, once again the possibilities are endless here.

 

You're not tapped out... it's simple, your oil cooler is probably partially clogged with debris, that is a common and simple problem to rectify. Soap the cooler down with a degreaser/soap and blast water through the fins until it is clean. Your oil temp sensor may also be out of spec.... again a very simple problem to rectify.

 

You're down to only two possibilities now. Both are quick 'n easy to fix. Hang in there!

[Tim-ANC 202]

He was riding around in a balmy 17F. Hard for me to imagine an overheat condition. Feels like temp sensor if that's the case. But yeah, if the cooler is dirty should be cleaned regardless 

[freebo86 291]

6 minutes ago, retro said:

 

You're not tapped out... it's simple, your oil cooler is probably partially clogged with debris, that is a common and simple problem to rectify. Soap the cooler down with a degreaser/soap and blast water through the fins until it is clean. Your oil temp sensor may also be out of spec.... again a very simple problem to rectify.

 

You're down to only two possibilities now. Both are quick 'n easy to fix. Hang in there!

So how do these two things prevent the bike from starting? I’m confused. 
 

 

[freebo86 291]

4 minutes ago, Tim-ANC said:

He was riding around in a balmy 17F. Hard for me to imagine an overheat condition. Feels like temp sensor if that's the case. But yeah, if the cooler is dirty should be cleaned regardless 

So the oil temp sensor can prevent starting?

[Tim-ANC 202]

I don't know. I'd need to look at a WDM to see if cuts out anything in the starting circuit 

[retro 4,048]

14 minutes ago, freebo86 said:

So how do these two things prevent the bike from starting? I’m confused.

 

The motor is overheating badly. Remember, your 450 is NOT air-cooled, it is oil-cooled! Ambient air temperatures that you ride in have nothing to do with mitigating the problem.

[retro 4,048]

14 minutes ago, freebo86 said:

So the oil temp sensor can prevent starting?

 

No. A badly overheated motor won't start though.

[Goober 1,555]

I say keep looking you were pretty happy with it this morning. it’s something very simple.
 

did you smell the engine—was it hot?

The fan running and oil temp light not coming on tells me it’s likely over 100C but that’s not overly hot. You can tell when an engine is overly hot it will start stumbling and then quit on you. You didn’t have that.

just go buy a new oil sensor and crush washer and clean the oil cooler. Try again.

[freebo86 291]

21 minutes ago, retro said:

 

The motor is overheating badly. Remember, your 450 is NOT air-cooled, it is oil-cooled! Ambient air temperatures that you ride in have nothing to do with mitigating the problem.

Can I manually over ride that temp switch and get the fan to run when I choose to on a switch for the time being with the fan running while bike is running this will keep it cool. No? 
 

[retro 4,048]

Just now, freebo86 said:

Can I manually over ride that temp switch and get the fan to run when I choose to on a switch for the time being with the fan running while bike is running this will keep it cool. No? 

 

Yes, you can install a manual fan switch if you wish. But a running fan motor won't prevent the motor from overheating if the oil cooler is clogged with debris.

[retro 4,048]

If your oil temp sensor measures within spec then you don't need a manual fan switch. In fact, a manual switch can be detrimental because a constantly running fan (with a clear oil coller) prevents the motor oil from ever reaching operating temperature.

[freebo86 291]

2 minutes ago, retro said:

 

Yes, you can install a manual fan switch if you wish. But a running fan motor won't prevent the motor from overheating if the oil cooler is clogged with debris.

I’ll give the cooler a cleaning tomorrow see how easily it’s accessible with everything in place now. I’ll also try and use my compressor to blow from the rear to the front of it to dislodge any stuck debris. 

[retro 4,048]

Shine a flashlight through the cooler to check your work as you go. It's likely quite clogged up

[retro 4,048]

Also, while you have the motor oil drained during your 1st oil & filter change, take the oil temp sensor out and carry it indoors and allow the sensor to warm up to room temperature. Then measure the resistance. If it is out of spec do not reinstall it.... replace it.

[freebo86 291]

6 minutes ago, retro said:

Shine a flashlight through the cooler to check your work as you go. It's likely quite clogged up

Thanks. Im hoping your right on this as the conditions tonight were COLD, I mean like 4degree Fahrenheit (-16C Celsius). I’m hard pressed to see how the engine was able to overheat, I only lasted out there for just over an hour due to the cold and called it quits. 

[retro 4,048]

It doesn't matter if it's -100 C outdoors, the motor is not an air-cooled one. It is 100% OIL-COOLED. Whenever air cannot flow through the cooler in sufficient volume to cool the oil, the motor WILL overheat in -100 C ambient air temps as quickly and as severely as it WILL overheat in +30 C ambient temps..

[Fishfiles 20,145]

7 hours ago, freebo86 said:

I’ve tested the spark plug before under these conditions and there is always spark. Plug is neither wet or dry previously.
 

Im honestly tapped out. Going to check the cooler, I think it may be covered with dry mud from recollection and I’ll spray it off. At that point this machine is going. No more no sense. 

 

Just reading the replies, once again the possibilities are endless here.

Still don't know the answer to my question , when the engine  is hot and it won't start , does the engine turn over slower than usual  or does it turn over the same hot or cold ---     does it drag like the motor is in a bind 

 

can't understand a plug being  " neither wet or dry " , it has to be one or the other and " neither wet or dry previously "  to me means you really don't know what's going on right now 

[Goober 1,555]

Some of the newer service manuals don’t list a range of resistance values for the oil temp sensor, only the range at ambient, e.g. your range might be 8.5KOhm-10KOhm at 25C.

 

very important you test near that endpoint, in KOhms. Does your multimeter have that setting? Bad sensors are usually 1KOhm to 2 KOhm above the high end of normal.

 

The Fan Control Unit activates the fan but not until the lagging sensor reads about 1KOhm. Usually at 100C but if your sensor is lagging then that might be 120C (248F). Too hot.

 

You can use a pan of your used oil to test. an electric hot plate (outside) would be best. Using a burner is very hard to control. You’ll need a calibrated thermometer. 

Edited March 17, 2021 by Goober

[freebo86 291]

1 hour ago, Fishfiles said:

Still don't know the answer to my question , when the engine  is hot and it won't start , does the engine turn over slower than usual  or does it turn over the same hot or cold ---     does it drag like the motor is in a bind 

 

can't understand a plug being  " neither wet or dry " , it has to be one or the other and " neither wet or dry previously "  to me means you really don't know what's going on right now 

 

Turn over is the same.

The plug is damp/smells a bit of fuel (or did before this overhaul). Granted, I didn't check the plug state condition last night.

 

11 minutes ago, Goober said:

Some of the newer service manuals don’t list a range of resistance values for the oil temp sensor, only the range at ambient, e.g. your range might be 8.5KOhm-10KOhm at 25C.

 

very important you test near that endpoint, in KOhms. Does your multimeter have that setting? Bad sensors are usually 1KOhm to 2 KOhm above the high end of normal.

 

The Fan Control Unit activates the fan but not until the lagging sensor reads about 1KOhm. Usually at 100C but if your sensor is lagging then that might be 120C (248F). Too hot.

 

You can use a pan of your used oil to test. an electric hot plate (outside) would be best. Using a burner is very hard to control. You’ll need a calibrated thermometer. 

 

The manual calls for 9.5k to 10.5k ohms at 25C, I checked the manual.

 

This is what has me baffled. I turn the key the OIL LIGHT comes on for a moment and goes OFF. If I run the bike, the fan comes eventually based on whatever condition the FCU or Oil Temp sensor tell it.

 

If there is a lack of oil cooling due to the oil cooler being clogged from mud, would the fan not turn on sooner then as the oil would get hotter quicker due to lack of air flow through the fins? Which results in the oil not being able to get cooled down properly and being hotter more often than usual? 

[Goober 1,555]

34 minutes ago, freebo86 said:

I turn the key the OIL LIGHT comes on for a moment and goes OFF.

This is a “normal” indicator but from my weak understanding it doesn’t tell you the overheat warning system is good, but that the initial test was completed. Does your manual include an overheat warning diagnostics?
 

the fan will only come on when the oil temp sensor reaches betw 1.2 - 0.95KOhms. If the sensor is lagging then the engine cooling is lagging too and the hotter it will be upon shutdown. It’s shutting off too early too.

 

I asked about the plug because if it’s running rich then it might be getting too much fuel on a warm startup. 

[Melatv 792]

Hi: From what I see the Oil Temp. sensor only brings the Oil temp light on -- no shut down.  When it's real winter cold here I have found that you have to prime the carb. to get the bike started again. But the over heated engine will seize.